41 - Breeze Knoll Mansion and The List Family Murders

[00:00:00] and the most important thing is that you can find a crime in real estate.

[00:00:07] At the intersection of true crime and real estate, you'll find crime estate. I'm Heather.

[00:00:11] And my name is Elena. As real estate agents and true crime junkies, we view crimes through

[00:00:16] a different lens. So walk through the door of some of the most notorious true crimes with

[00:00:20] us and discover how sometimes the scene of the crime has its own story to tell.

[00:00:27] Hey, y'all. We are back with another fascinating property and historic crime for you today.

[00:00:34] I'm Heather and I'm joined today by my co-host and filler realtor, Elena and our producer.

[00:00:39] It's a slash commentator we've decided. Melanie, hi ladies, how's it going?

[00:00:43] Hey, it feels like we're at the full end of the school year sprint. I don't know why this

[00:00:49] happens. I'm surprised every year, but March, April, May are super busy and I like have PTSD.

[00:00:54] I guess I forget until or in it. Like how hectic this time of year is.

[00:00:58] Yeah, it really is. And then of course it's a busy time of year for us work wise, you know spring is always sort

[00:01:04] of crazy. So I agree it's been hectic and we always love, you know our little hour or two that

[00:01:11] we carve out for podcasting. Yeah, it's been pretty crazy and yet we have several more months left to go.

[00:01:18] I think it's also because we have three eighth graders and so it's sort of, I don't know about your house.

[00:01:24] But we got a little senior writers going on in my house because now it's like, okay, they know you pretty much what they're

[00:01:31] going to do next year whatever they're doing now is not going to change.

[00:01:36] Like you know, it's not going to change their future and so they're not quite as it's not quite as critical.

[00:01:47] So anyway, we got a little senior writers going on at my house.

[00:01:50] But I am very thankful we have a long weekend coming up for the Easter holiday soon.

[00:01:55] Yeah, you know that makes me think a shout out to all of our listeners in Norway.

[00:02:00] We discovered last year when all of a sudden we had like all of these listeners popping up from Norway that it's an

[00:02:08] Easter tradition in that country to like listen, watch, read about true crime over Easter weekend. Isn't that crazy?

[00:02:15] It was so crazy. I'm so glad that you looked up some information about it.

[00:02:18] So we have some information to share.

[00:02:20] So it's a tradition that dates back to the 1920s when two authors wrote a crime book and their publisher arranged to take an

[00:02:26] advertisement out on the front page of the local paper, but he made it look like the

[00:02:31] advertisement was an actual news story about a train being robbed and so many people thought of the true

[00:02:36] story that the publicity catapulted the book to fame.

[00:02:39] So now in Easter weekend Norwegians enjoy a little crime binge.

[00:02:42] I think that is so cool.

[00:02:44] Totally.

[00:02:45] I love weird facts.

[00:02:47] Yes, if you've listened to the show for a while, you know I like me a fact and this is one of my favorite ones.

[00:02:54] So I feel like we can dinner party conversations.

[00:02:58] Yeah, pull it out.

[00:03:00] Well, unfortunately for today's story, it does not take place in Norway.

[00:03:04] Although had I planned better, you all know I totally would have found like a Norwegian crime to cover.

[00:03:09] I feel like it's too perfect to have crime.

[00:03:12] Yeah, because I think isn't it rated like the number one happiest place in the world or something?

[00:03:17] All those Scandinavians are pretty darn happy and gorgeous universal health care.

[00:03:22] Mm-hmm.

[00:03:23] Okay.

[00:03:24] I agree.

[00:03:26] All right.

[00:03:27] Well, maybe we just add that to our list of places to travel to.

[00:03:30] Or get sick in.

[00:03:32] It's fair.

[00:03:35] Well, today I'm going to tell you about the life of John List and his incredible mansion, Breason Old.

[00:03:42] And of course, about the crime that occurred there.

[00:03:45] However, to understand John, you really have to go all the way back to his childhood.

[00:03:51] And that's where I'm going to start with today's story.

[00:03:54] Now John Emile List was born in 1925.

[00:03:58] And at the time of his birth, his father was 65 years old and his mother was 39.

[00:04:04] That seems really old to start having kids, especially in 1925.

[00:04:08] I mean, not to alienate any of our listeners, but 65 is kind of old now to have a kid.

[00:04:13] I mean, yeah, I think you're absolutely right.

[00:04:16] And it won't shock y'all to know that I did do a deep dive into like the average maternal age in 1925.

[00:04:23] Of course you did.

[00:04:24] The life expectancy of men and women in the 20s.

[00:04:27] Really all sorts of other stats Atlanta that you don't really care about, but if you care about it, I care about it.

[00:04:33] Oh, I love you for that enough to not bore you with the facts.

[00:04:37] But let's just say that in 1925, that was especially old to be having children, especially a first child.

[00:04:45] By all accounts, John's father also named John was one of those kids should be seen and not heard kind of parents.

[00:04:52] His interactions with John were mainly through his wife, also John's mother, Alma.

[00:04:56] And when he did have to reference him in any way, he referred to him as quote, the boy, what's sad it is.

[00:05:04] It was not that loving relationship for sure.

[00:05:07] And so both John senior and Alma were very religious and devoted to the German Lutheran church.

[00:05:15] As a family, they spent the evenings reading the Bible.

[00:05:18] And in 1943, when John junior graduated from high school, he joined the army despite his mother's protest and concerns that it was too dangerous.

[00:05:26] Remember this would have been right in the middle of World War II.

[00:05:29] Mal, if we only had your historian son here, he'd give us all the highlights of what was going on in the war in 1943.

[00:05:35] Yeah, you'd probably share enough to fill his own podcast, but while we don't have him here today, we should tell our listeners that our boys are planning a very special Mother's Day episode.

[00:05:46] So yeah, you should all make sure to tune into that. We're a little nervous.

[00:05:50] Yeah, we might not win parents of the year for letting them do this, but they're really excited about it.

[00:05:55] And we might get some new listeners and new demographic, the 12 to 16 year old.

[00:05:59] Yeah, I mean, I think we'll take any demographic we can get.

[00:06:02] Yeah, that's great.

[00:06:03] So also not winning parents of the year or Johnless folks from all accounts his mother was overbearing never letting him go outside to play and fear that he would get hurt.

[00:06:13] So you can only imagine how much she was against him going off to war.

[00:06:17] Only a year after he enlisted in the army, his father died and several years after that when the war was over, he returned home and at his mother's urging went to college at the University of Michigan to become an accountant going on to get his MBA before being called up to serve in the Korean War.

[00:06:33] At the end of that deployment, he was stationed in Virginia, and that is where he met his future wife Helen Taylor.

[00:06:39] Unfortunately, Helen had been widowed during the Korean War and became a single mom to her nine year old daughter Brenda.

[00:06:45] She was really anxious to remarry and John seemed anxious to marry Helen.

[00:06:50] And that you had a fast courtship, speeded up by the fact that Helen told John she was pregnant.

[00:06:56] The two were married only two months after they first met on December 1st, 1951.

[00:07:02] Now how do y'all think John's overbearing mother felt about this marriage?

[00:07:06] It's pissed.

[00:07:07] Oh, yeah, for sure.

[00:07:09] Hopefully our daughter's in law never called us overbearing.

[00:07:14] But yeah, now I'm sure she was pissed.

[00:07:16] And I don't know if it's a spoiler, but either she was not married or they lost the baby because there was no baby right away at least.

[00:07:27] Yeah, you're very right about how she felt, but actually why she didn't like her is sort of interesting.

[00:07:35] First and foremost, Alma didn't like Helen because she wasn't Lutheran.

[00:07:40] Presumably that's something you can change.

[00:07:43] Yeah, right?

[00:07:44] Yeah, you could.

[00:07:45] Yeah.

[00:07:46] And second, she had heard that Helen had several miscarriages which I assume means that she doesn't think Helen will be able to provide John or children.

[00:07:55] That's weird.

[00:07:56] It is weird.

[00:07:57] Oh, I got it.

[00:07:59] Regardless of her reasons, Alma felt that John married beneath him

[00:08:03] and she never let Helen forget it.

[00:08:05] It sounds like an awesome mother in law.

[00:08:07] Yeah.

[00:08:08] Helen on the other hand quickly realized that she had married a mama's boy and began to regret their marriage almost from the beginning.

[00:08:14] That means said they stayed together.

[00:08:16] I mean, as we've mentioned several times there just weren't a lot of options for women and bad marriages in the 50s.

[00:08:21] And they went on to have a daughter Patricia Marie in 1955 and a son, John Frederick in 1956.

[00:08:29] And then another son, Frederick, not at all confusing in 1958.

[00:08:34] And it said that once they had children Alma did soften towards Helen.

[00:08:38] So anyway, Atlanta, let's fast forward to 1965.

[00:08:42] At this point John and Helen have been married for seven years and they have three children together.

[00:08:50] But this entire time John's been struggling to keep down a job.

[00:08:54] His personality was hard to get along with.

[00:08:56] In fact, he was so rigid that they had even asked him not to teach Sunday school at church anymore.

[00:09:02] Wow. They'll usually let anyone teach Sunday school.

[00:09:04] They're like, please any volunteers we can get.

[00:09:07] Come on.

[00:09:08] So John was thrilled when not long after he lost his last job, he received an offer to be the vice president and comptroller,

[00:09:17] a first national bank of Jersey City in New Jersey.

[00:09:20] And that is how the family gets to Westfield, New Jersey where our crime takes place.

[00:09:25] Westfield is located only about 16 miles outside of Manhattan, New York.

[00:09:30] So as you can imagine, it really appeals to people who work in New York City but are looking for a more suburban setting to raise their families.

[00:09:38] The Christie's International Real Estate website describes Westfield as an affluent family friendly community

[00:09:44] where a suburban setting mixes with an urban living advantages.

[00:09:49] Interestingly enough, Westfield is only a short distance away from the watcher house.

[00:09:54] You know, the one where those new homeowners received those crazy letters that somebody was watching them.

[00:09:58] Yeah, definitely we haven't done that story yet.

[00:10:01] We should put that in our files for a future story.

[00:10:03] But if you aren't familiar with it, this is a modern story where a family buys a nice large suburban home in Westfield, New Jersey.

[00:10:13] And they start getting these anonymous letters from the directly someone who's watching them and watching how they're going to take care of the house.

[00:10:23] They're very spooky.

[00:10:25] And then they, the family does like a lawsuit trying to say that maybe that the previous homeowner because I think the previous homeowner had received one or two of the letters over the time period.

[00:10:37] There's been a TV show about this.

[00:10:40] And today I don't think they've ever found out who has been sending these like really creepy letters, but yeah, I mean, I think there's something that's even more ominous about these, you know, middle America, suburban beautiful no crime happens settings when these crazy ass crimes really do occur in them.

[00:11:02] But at this point in the life of the list family, John is really eager to move his wife and kids to Westfield.

[00:11:09] According to those that knew him, he was an overspender and put a lot of emphasis on appearances.

[00:11:15] So having a home in this prestigious neighborhood was really important to him.

[00:11:19] He asked his mom for the down payment for the house at 431 Hillside Avenue.

[00:11:24] And she agreed, but Elena on one condition.

[00:11:28] She wanted to live with him and his family.

[00:11:30] Oh, you're shaking your head.

[00:11:31] No, no, no, inappropriate.

[00:11:33] And they were living, you know, was it me from Michigan?

[00:11:35] And so now, you know, the mother, you know, would be moving.

[00:11:39] And I think when you're moving like that, then your whole world is going to be focused now on the family.

[00:11:45] Absolutely.

[00:11:46] But by this point, Helen is actually pretty ill more on that in a second too.

[00:11:51] So John thought that having his mom move in with them was like a really good idea.

[00:11:55] And the third floor of this house had a separate apartment area.

[00:11:59] So Alma was sort of able to have like her own living quarters and make it her own.

[00:12:04] So the list family bought the 1896 Breeze Nole Mansion in 1965 for $50,000.

[00:12:13] It was a 19 room, 5,000 square feet, three story Victorian mansion.

[00:12:19] And at the time, the most expensive house in the upper middle class neighborhood.

[00:12:24] It even had a massive ballroom or a ballroom.

[00:12:27] I know.

[00:12:28] I have two things to say.

[00:12:29] Number one is that in case my mom is listening, you could totally live with my husband and I.

[00:12:34] In case she's listening, I don't, I don't like how what about your mother-in-law?

[00:12:38] Is that put you on the spot?

[00:12:39] Yes, but we'll talk about that later.

[00:12:41] Okay.

[00:12:42] She could tell my mom could totally live with us.

[00:12:47] But not the way I don't like about this is that she's like, yes, I will do this huge giant thing for you.

[00:12:52] If you do this huge giant thing for me, I don't think that's appropriate.

[00:12:56] But it also, it doesn't sound like from what you've said so far that they're like an incredibly social people.

[00:13:02] So they probably weren't using that ballroom for its intended purposes where they.

[00:13:06] I mean, from what I can tell no, it doesn't really sound like John got along with anybody.

[00:13:11] Yeah, from what I read, it was pretty elusive and none of the neighbors really knew them.

[00:13:16] Other than that when he would move the lawn, he would do it in a suit and tie.

[00:13:21] Oh, wow.

[00:13:23] Which sort of tells you everything you need to know about the cow of tight US?

[00:13:29] And so I mentioned earlier that Helen was sick when she was pregnant with her third child in 1958.

[00:13:36] She became depressed and turned alcohol and tranquilizers after he was born.

[00:13:41] She began to separate herself from her family, ignored the kids and stopped attending church.

[00:13:46] Her condition was such that her personality completely changed and she started to verbally berate John.

[00:13:53] So much so that he began sleeping in a different room to avoid her.

[00:13:57] According to an article in the New York Times, starting in 1965, soon after they moved to Westfield,

[00:14:03] Mrs. List began experiencing spells in which she would black out and fall.

[00:14:08] The sight in her right eye also began to fail.

[00:14:11] She was examined on three occasions at Overlook Hospital in 1966, but never told physicians about her illness.

[00:14:19] So she had a diagnosis at this point?

[00:14:22] I thought at this point they were still trying to figure out figure out what was wrong with her?

[00:14:25] Well, so the doctors were Atlanta, but apparently Helen knew what was causing this dissent into madness.

[00:14:32] She had contracted syphilis from her previous husband and knew as early as 1947.

[00:14:39] So that's years before she even met John that she had contracted the disease, but never told him.

[00:14:46] The article goes on to say that it was not until she went to Columbia Presbyteria Medical Center in December 1968

[00:14:53] and January 1969 when test pointed to tertiary syphilis.

[00:14:57] I think that's how you say that, Mel. You're our expert.

[00:15:00] Sounds right.

[00:15:01] So apparently tertiary syphilis affects the brain.

[00:15:05] And once the test pointed to that, she told the doctors about having the disease.

[00:15:09] When you said that and my head go, oh shit.

[00:15:12] That's a really big secret to keep from your spouse.

[00:15:16] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:15:18] It's a lot for John to handle.

[00:15:21] On top of being the kid's primary caregiver at this point and trying to keep a job,

[00:15:26] it just sort of feels to him like everything is starting to unravel.

[00:15:31] Now also remember we are in the 1960s and it's sort of that societal era of peace and love,

[00:15:37] and that's also really hard for straight lace John to deal with.

[00:15:41] To him, it was evidence that society was on the brink of disaster

[00:15:45] and his response was to be more rigid with this family at home.

[00:15:49] And look, you don't have to be a genius to know how that worked out.

[00:15:51] We all know that the tighter you try and control your kids and your family,

[00:15:54] the more they're going to revolt.

[00:15:56] And that is exactly what Patricia did.

[00:15:59] She not only started dressing like quote, a hippie,

[00:16:02] but also began experimenting with drugs and pursuing an interest in the occult

[00:16:07] and gasp was interested in becoming an actress.

[00:16:10] I'm sure that went over really well in the German Lutheran household.

[00:16:14] I mean, I think it went over about as well as the syphilis diagnosis,

[00:16:17] whatever.

[00:16:19] But unfortunately those were not John's only problems.

[00:16:23] By the late 1960s, he had lost his job at the bank.

[00:16:27] It required him to have people and sales skills that he just did not have

[00:16:31] and faced with not making enough money to support his family and their new home.

[00:16:36] He started skimming funds from his mother's bank account.

[00:16:39] No.

[00:16:40] Not willing to tell his family that he was unemployed,

[00:16:43] he would get up and get dressed for work every day,

[00:16:46] go to the train station and read.

[00:16:49] He eventually took out a second mortgage on the house,

[00:16:51] but wasn't able to keep up with the payments.

[00:16:54] And by November of 1971, he was so behind on his mortgage payments

[00:16:58] that the bank had started foreclosure proceedings.

[00:17:01] He was several thousand dollars in debt and had exhausted all of his options

[00:17:05] to keep his family out of financial ruin.

[00:17:08] Having run through, get this over 200,000 dollars of his mom's sightings.

[00:17:15] Gosh.

[00:17:16] And that awful?

[00:17:17] Very, yeah.

[00:17:18] It's terrible.

[00:17:19] I mean, that's a lot of money today.

[00:17:20] Imagine how much it was back then.

[00:17:22] Absolutely.

[00:17:23] And so he devised another plan to get his family out of this predicament.

[00:17:28] On the morning of November 9, 1971, after the kids went to school,

[00:17:33] John walked into the kitchen and shot Helen in the head,

[00:17:36] all while she was making toast.

[00:17:39] She fell to the floor with the toast lodged in her throat.

[00:17:42] Not wasting any time he walked up to the apartment his mother lived in on the third floor,

[00:17:46] and shot her.

[00:17:47] Also, while she was making toast, he tucked his mother's body into a storage area in the attic

[00:17:53] and then walked back to his kitchen to take care of Helen's body.

[00:17:57] He dragged Helen into the ballroom where he had already laid out three boy scout sleeping bags

[00:18:02] and he laid Helen on one of them.

[00:18:05] Now, while waiting for the kids to come home from school,

[00:18:08] Johnless took care of covering his tracks.

[00:18:12] He wrote letters to the kids' school and to his boss,

[00:18:15] saying that he would be out for a few days as they were going to North Carolina

[00:18:18] to visit Helen's mother who was very sick.

[00:18:21] And not long after he finished writing the letters,

[00:18:24] 16-year-old Patty called from the house.

[00:18:27] Not long after he had finished writing the letters,

[00:18:30] 16-year-old Patty called the house from school

[00:18:32] and asked to be picked up early, claiming to be sick.

[00:18:36] John drove to school to pick her up and then made sure that he walked into the house before she did,

[00:18:41] and sadly, but not surprisingly, shot her in the foyer.

[00:18:45] Oh gosh.

[00:18:47] It doesn't get any better.

[00:18:48] I'm sorry, but we're almost through this part so bear with me.

[00:18:51] When his younger son, 13-year-old Frederick arrived home from school later that day,

[00:18:55] he shot him before he even had a chance to take off his coat.

[00:18:59] He moved both Patty and Frederick's bodies into the ballroom

[00:19:02] and laid them on the sleeping bags next to Helen.

[00:19:06] He went to watch his older son, 15-year-old John Frederick, play in a soccer game.

[00:19:11] When he arrived back home, John proceeded to kill him as well,

[00:19:14] though evidence shows that John Frederick was the only person in the list family

[00:19:17] to realize what was happening and put up a fight.

[00:19:21] By the end of the day, his entire family was dead

[00:19:24] with the exception of his stepdaughter, Brenda,

[00:19:26] who had gotten married and left the household in 1960.

[00:19:30] His mother upstairs in the attic apartment

[00:19:32] had laid out on the sleeping bags near the grand fireplace in the ballroom.

[00:19:36] He placed Helen's arm across their youngest son

[00:19:39] and covered each person's face with a towel

[00:19:41] and then kneeled to pray for their souls.

[00:19:44] Crime's against kids are always so tough.

[00:19:47] Yeah, it's a tough story.

[00:19:49] Yeah, this story is really hard,

[00:19:52] but it also reminds me, disturbingly of the count day,

[00:19:57] at the count day, at the count day,

[00:19:59] and I say his name, how do you say his name?

[00:20:01] I think it was like Leon or something.

[00:20:03] Yeah, yeah.

[00:20:04] I'm not in my French accent phase right now.

[00:20:06] I know you don't have that mentally on,

[00:20:08] but for our listeners who haven't listened to that,

[00:20:10] that was one of our earlier stories that we did

[00:20:13] that took place in France, in Leon France.

[00:20:16] And it is, you know,

[00:20:18] that was a more modern history,

[00:20:20] but it was weirdly similar.

[00:20:22] I mean, a dad, a religious dad,

[00:20:25] facing financial ruin,

[00:20:27] can't deal with the fallout,

[00:20:29] and then killing all of his family.

[00:20:32] Even the notes that he sent to basically get people off the track,

[00:20:37] you know, there's a lot going on similar

[00:20:39] and then he left in escape

[00:20:42] and went on the run into this day.

[00:20:44] We don't know what happened to him.

[00:20:46] So not to spoil it,

[00:20:47] but if you haven't listened to that one,

[00:20:49] that's kind of a crazy story that took place in France.

[00:20:51] And it seems real similar.

[00:20:54] Yeah, you're right, Mel.

[00:20:55] There are a lot of similarities,

[00:20:57] not the least of which was that they were both incredibly planned out.

[00:21:01] Prior to leaving the house,

[00:21:03] Lisc cleaned up the scene

[00:21:05] and removed all pictures of himself from the house.

[00:21:08] As he left, he turned down the thermostat,

[00:21:10] turned on all the lights

[00:21:12] and put on organ music

[00:21:14] to play through the home's intercom system.

[00:21:17] The murders were not discovered

[00:21:19] until December 7th nearly a month later.

[00:21:22] Lisc had covered his track so well

[00:21:24] with the notes to the kids' schools and to his office.

[00:21:27] And he'd also stopped the mail, newspaper

[00:21:29] and even milk deliveries.

[00:21:31] Neighbors noticed that the lights were always on in the house,

[00:21:34] but it was only when the actual light bulbs started burning out

[00:21:37] that they called the police who arrived to find the bodies.

[00:21:40] Yeah, nowadays with these LED lights, you know.

[00:21:43] It's going to take a lot longer than one month

[00:21:45] for them to be visibly burning out.

[00:21:48] Now inside the house,

[00:21:49] the police found a letter from John List

[00:21:51] addressed to the finder,

[00:21:53] offering an explanation for the murders

[00:21:55] and telling where documents could be found in the house.

[00:21:58] In the five page note, he wrote, quote,

[00:22:01] at last I'm certain that all have gone to heaven now.

[00:22:04] If things had gone on, who knows if that would be the case?

[00:22:08] Now as you all might imagine,

[00:22:10] this was the beginning of a massive

[00:22:12] nationwide manhunt for John List.

[00:22:14] However, remember it's 1971

[00:22:17] and because Lisc had destroyed

[00:22:19] all of the photovolves of himself at the house,

[00:22:22] they really didn't have any sort of likeness

[00:22:24] to share with either authorities or the public.

[00:22:27] His car was eventually found at JFK airport,

[00:22:30] but there was no evidence that he had boarded a flight that day.

[00:22:33] And then, Dremel, please ladies,

[00:22:36] the trail goes cold for 18 years.

[00:22:42] That's crazy.

[00:22:44] I mean, was there a theory as to where he went

[00:22:46] or what happened to him?

[00:22:48] I remember when we were covering the count

[00:22:49] that Melanie was talking about earlier

[00:22:51] many people thought he had killed himself in the woods.

[00:22:53] What do they think happened to him?

[00:22:55] I mean, this case had to have a lot of conspiracy theories

[00:22:57] swirling around it.

[00:22:59] I mean, and kills his whole family

[00:23:00] and then just vanishes.

[00:23:01] I mean, that's crazy.

[00:23:02] Some people even thought that he might be

[00:23:04] the infamous hijacker DB Cooper.

[00:23:06] Ooh, that's interesting.

[00:23:07] We love a good conspiracy theory.

[00:23:09] Yeah, apparently he,

[00:23:10] it was like right around that exact same time period

[00:23:13] and they're like, who has less to lose than someone like that?

[00:23:19] But, okay.

[00:23:20] So did you all ever watch America's most wanted?

[00:23:22] Mm-hmm.

[00:23:23] Yeah, I did.

[00:23:24] But it's like one of those things that's so ingrained

[00:23:26] in kind of Americana pop culture.

[00:23:30] Like, I know I watched it,

[00:23:31] but I don't even remember when I watched it.

[00:23:33] It's just something so in the background of my childhood.

[00:23:37] Well, yeah.

[00:23:38] And, you know, Mel, the show had multiple iterations

[00:23:40] and has been on many different channels over the years.

[00:23:43] But it began in the fall of 1988 and was

[00:23:46] and continues to be hosted by John Walsh.

[00:23:48] I think our true crime,

[00:23:49] Efficient Autos will know that

[00:23:51] John Walsh really became a spokesperson for crimes

[00:23:53] after his six-year-old son Adam was kidnapped and murdered

[00:23:56] in 81.

[00:23:58] And, you know, really just became an incredible advocate

[00:24:00] for missing children.

[00:24:02] Actually, I didn't know this

[00:24:03] until we were researching this story.

[00:24:05] But he went on to help establish

[00:24:07] the National Center for Missing and Explored Children.

[00:24:09] Mm-hmm.

[00:24:10] So it probably won't surprise you to learn

[00:24:14] that America's most wanted has gone on to publicize

[00:24:16] and solve many crimes over the years.

[00:24:19] But it was in season one of the show

[00:24:21] on the Upstart Fox channel

[00:24:23] that they picked up the story of John List.

[00:24:26] On May 21st, 1989,

[00:24:29] the list story aired on America's most wanted

[00:24:31] with the help of a renowned forensic artist,

[00:24:34] Frank Vinder, who created a bust

[00:24:37] depicting an elderly John List

[00:24:39] in hopes that it would help the public identify him.

[00:24:42] Remember, they didn't have any pictures of him to use.

[00:24:45] And so at the time, the show aired.

[00:24:48] This was, John List was actually

[00:24:50] the third longest running federal fugitive case.

[00:24:54] That's a mouthful.

[00:24:55] But that's interesting.

[00:24:57] Yeah.

[00:24:58] I'm asking but I know that you know the other two.

[00:25:02] I mean, you know,

[00:25:04] I tried to research the other two

[00:25:06] because the article didn't list it.

[00:25:09] But while I was trying to look it up,

[00:25:12] I did find that the longest capture

[00:25:15] in history,

[00:25:16] the US Marshalls occurred not too long ago in 2015.

[00:25:20] And it was a guy by the name,

[00:25:22] the wonderful name of Frank Freshwater's.

[00:25:25] And it is a cool name.

[00:25:26] Yeah, I know.

[00:25:27] It really is good.

[00:25:28] A good name.

[00:25:29] He was captured after being on the run for over 50 years.

[00:25:33] And he had escaped from what I didn't realize,

[00:25:36] you know, Shoshan Kredemshin.

[00:25:38] I mean, I love that movie.

[00:25:39] That is actually a real prison.

[00:25:41] And he had escaped from there after being convicted

[00:25:46] of a voluntary manslaughter.

[00:25:48] And like 50 years later,

[00:25:50] they found him recently and he's still alive.

[00:25:53] So I just thought that was kind of crazy.

[00:25:55] That's crazy.

[00:25:56] I love a good history story where they get the bad guy.

[00:26:00] Yeah, you will always like to get the bad guy.

[00:26:02] Yeah.

[00:26:03] And then so when America's most wanted aired,

[00:26:05] it produced hundreds of tips,

[00:26:07] including one of the most important things

[00:26:10] including one from a Colorado resident, Wanda Flannery.

[00:26:14] Who called about a former neighbor of hers named Bob Clark,

[00:26:18] who had recently moved away to Richmond, Virginia.

[00:26:21] Now Bob was married to Wanda's friend Dolores.

[00:26:25] And interestingly enough,

[00:26:27] this was not the first time that Wanda Flannery

[00:26:30] was suspicious of her neighbor Bob.

[00:26:32] I mean, this gets crazy.

[00:26:34] So in February of 1987,

[00:26:36] two years before this segment aired on America's most wanted,

[00:26:40] one of it was just like flipping through an issue

[00:26:42] of world weekly news, which sounds like maybe was like a tabloid

[00:26:45] of some sort.

[00:26:46] I still love those tabloids.

[00:26:48] You know, my parents would never let me

[00:26:49] but I loved to play with them in that checkout line

[00:26:51] at the grocery store.

[00:26:52] Right.

[00:26:53] And I think that's exactly what she was doing.

[00:26:55] And she spotted an article about John List,

[00:26:58] the man who murdered his entire family.

[00:27:00] They had made a sketch of him

[00:27:02] and it looked like her neighbor.

[00:27:04] But it was actually the traits and characteristics

[00:27:06] that they listed that made her feel certain

[00:27:08] that List and Clark were the same person.

[00:27:11] Both men were not only religious,

[00:27:13] but Lutheran and Taught Sunday School.

[00:27:15] Both men almost always wore a coat and tie.

[00:27:17] Remember we said he would like mow the yard in his suit?

[00:27:21] Both men where accountants had trouble holding down jobs

[00:27:24] and liked to overspend.

[00:27:26] And maybe most importantly,

[00:27:28] both men had a scar behind their right ear.

[00:27:31] Wanda went so far you guys as to take the magazine

[00:27:34] over to the Clarks house and show it to her friend Dolores.

[00:27:37] And she was like,

[00:27:38] hey, just show him this story and see how he reacts.

[00:27:41] But it never went anywhere from there,

[00:27:44] presumably Dolores did not show Bob the article.

[00:27:47] And I mean, what's Wanda supposed to do with this?

[00:27:50] The suspicions were just the suspicions, right?

[00:27:53] Until she sees this America's most wanted episode.

[00:27:56] Now according to the website,

[00:27:58] crimelibrary.org,

[00:28:00] two agents checked out the leads

[00:28:02] that Thursday June the first would be like a week or so after.

[00:28:06] Which is pretty impressive how quickly this occurs.

[00:28:09] Absolutely.

[00:28:10] And the Clark address was actually the first one on their list

[00:28:13] to check out.

[00:28:14] So agent Kevin August approached the house and knocked on the door.

[00:28:19] He heard a vacuum being turned off

[00:28:21] and a woman opened the door.

[00:28:23] He asked for Robert Clark and Dolores said,

[00:28:26] well he's at work.

[00:28:27] The two agents asked to come in and speak with her.

[00:28:30] She invited them in and they showed her the FBI flyer on John List.

[00:28:34] They asked if this could be her husband.

[00:28:36] She paled noticeably and began to tremble as she tried to read the flyer.

[00:28:41] She admitted there was a resemblance but denied that this man could be her husband.

[00:28:45] She began to cry and offer them a wedding photo.

[00:28:48] And when they looked at that photo,

[00:28:50] they had no doubt that Robert Clark and John List were the same man.

[00:28:55] They asked about the scar behind the ear,

[00:28:57] where her husband was from, what he did for a living,

[00:29:00] and it all added up.

[00:29:02] One agent stayed behind in the other drove off to Bob Clark's place of business,

[00:29:06] alerting two other agents to meet him there.

[00:29:09] They entered the offices and saw Bob Clark coming down the hall

[00:29:12] from the Xerox machine with papers in his hand.

[00:29:15] He did not look surprised.

[00:29:17] They identified themselves as the FBI and asked for his identification.

[00:29:21] They asked him several other identifying questions

[00:29:24] which he answered affirmatively

[00:29:26] and then they asked if he was John Emil List.

[00:29:29] No, he said without hesitation.

[00:29:31] His response was too quick as if he had practiced mentally for this moment.

[00:29:35] He showed no annoyance or curiosity which in itself was suspicious.

[00:29:40] I mean, wouldn't your first thought of somebody asked her,

[00:29:42] you don't must have might be like,

[00:29:44] who's this?

[00:29:46] Yeah, what are you doing here and why do you want to know this?

[00:29:49] But fingerprints prove that List had finally been arrested

[00:29:52] for the murders of five people, his own family.

[00:29:55] After his arrest, John List was held without bail.

[00:29:58] Where the cheese is at the same moment

[00:30:00] had the same suspicion multiple times that turned out to be true.

[00:30:03] That's a vibe.

[00:30:05] We talk about vibes a lot.

[00:30:06] That's super vibe.

[00:30:07] Don't you think it would be so easy to tell yourself

[00:30:09] you're being crazy or paranoid?

[00:30:11] Yeah, 100%.

[00:30:12] Yeah.

[00:30:13] And she brought it to his wife.

[00:30:15] Then I'm going to say that correctly.

[00:30:16] You know, if they say, they always say like,

[00:30:20] if you see something, say something,

[00:30:22] well, she did.

[00:30:23] And you know, good for her.

[00:30:25] Now, was he actually convicted of this crime?

[00:30:29] We've had a lot of stories where they were.

[00:30:32] Yeah, no, you're right.

[00:30:33] And he was convicted on five counts of first degree murder

[00:30:37] and given five life sentences which would be served consecutively.

[00:30:41] In an interview with Connie Chung in 2002,

[00:30:43] List said, I feel when we get to heaven

[00:30:46] we won't worry about these earthly things.

[00:30:48] They'll either have forgiven me or won't realize

[00:30:50] you know what happened.

[00:30:52] I'm sure that if we recognize each other

[00:30:54] that will like each other's company

[00:30:56] just as we did here, when times were better.

[00:31:00] So it's not even like he has remorse.

[00:31:03] I read that in some of the police

[00:31:06] had asked him why he didn't commit suicide.

[00:31:09] And he said, well, then I wouldn't be able to go to heaven

[00:31:12] if I committed suicide.

[00:31:13] Where did that world?

[00:31:14] Wow.

[00:31:15] Yeah, lovely guy.

[00:31:16] Now, he actually tried to appeal his conviction,

[00:31:18] claiming that he had PTSD from World War II

[00:31:21] in the Korean War.

[00:31:23] But those appeals were rejected

[00:31:25] and he remained in prison until he died

[00:31:27] at the age of 82 from pneumonia.

[00:31:29] So do you all want to know what happened to the house?

[00:31:32] Yep, of course.

[00:31:33] Breesnell remained empty until it was destroyed by a fire

[00:31:37] in August of 1972, only nine months after the murders.

[00:31:42] And although the destruction was officially ruled arson

[00:31:46] it remains unsolved with no suspects.

[00:31:49] I wonder how hard the local police even tried to find.

[00:31:54] You know, I wonder if it was like the town goes,

[00:31:58] yeah, I don't think we want this,

[00:32:00] all right, books anymore.

[00:32:01] Right, maybe they did a service community.

[00:32:04] Yeah, community.

[00:32:05] I mean, because we have talked about

[00:32:07] I'm trying to think in the case where

[00:32:11] well, there was a break in,

[00:32:13] the other family, the Savahalists murders.

[00:32:15] Yeah, you know, the neighbors set with that house vacant

[00:32:18] for so long and a fire had been there

[00:32:20] and sort of destroyed part of it.

[00:32:21] And it was just this blight on the neighborhood.

[00:32:24] This house feels like it would have been a blight

[00:32:26] on this neighborhood.

[00:32:27] Oh, yeah.

[00:32:28] And it's neighborhood.

[00:32:29] Yeah, because this neighborhood actually had a lot

[00:32:31] of turn-in-the-century colonial revival homes.

[00:32:35] You know, this is kind of one of the bedroom communities

[00:32:37] for a lot of office workers in New York.

[00:32:40] I think I read a lot of bankers lived in this

[00:32:42] and kind of commuted from her from this area.

[00:32:45] I just got to imagine that nobody wanted this

[00:32:48] in their neighborhood.

[00:32:50] So, it's rumored that also destroyed in the fire

[00:32:55] was a stained-glass skylight in the ballroom

[00:33:00] that was supposed to be a signed Tiffany original.

[00:33:04] Of course, that was destroyed,

[00:33:06] but at the time it would have been worth

[00:33:07] at least $100,000.

[00:33:09] And today would be worth $700,000 or more.

[00:33:11] Wow.

[00:33:12] It's crazy.

[00:33:13] I mean, maybe that's what he spent his mom's money.

[00:33:15] Oh, could be.

[00:33:16] No, I mean $200,000 is a lot of money to run through.

[00:33:19] Maybe he should have just sold the house.

[00:33:21] Yes, sorry.

[00:33:22] We know a couple people that could have helped him with that.

[00:33:25] Yes.

[00:33:26] In the 1970s.

[00:33:27] So two years after the fire,

[00:33:29] a new home was built on this site.

[00:33:31] Okay, and so here's my question.

[00:33:33] We know this house burned down.

[00:33:35] But if it hadn't, would you have lived there

[00:33:38] or would you live in the new house

[00:33:40] that was built on the site?

[00:33:43] You know, the whole story is very disturbing.

[00:33:46] But what creeps me out the most about this one

[00:33:48] is that he put on music when he left the house.

[00:33:52] So for that reason I would not live there

[00:33:55] because of the creepy music and the dead bodies

[00:33:58] in the house,

[00:33:59] but I would live in a house built on the land.

[00:34:01] Okay.

[00:34:02] Yeah.

[00:34:03] It's funny how like when we do this each time,

[00:34:06] we learn more about ourselves

[00:34:08] and kind of like our thought process.

[00:34:10] And I don't like child murders.

[00:34:14] And so that's probably the reason I would say no.

[00:34:17] I also think that the fact that the bodies were there

[00:34:20] for a month,

[00:34:22] that also just feels really picky.

[00:34:26] But yeah, would on the property of brand new house?

[00:34:30] Sure.

[00:34:31] See, I don't think,

[00:34:32] I don't think I live in either house on the property.

[00:34:34] I definitely wouldn't live in it as it was.

[00:34:37] I don't know that I'd live in the new one.

[00:34:39] And I don't know that I'd list

[00:34:41] the old one or the new one either.

[00:34:43] Like this one seems particularly brutal.

[00:34:47] And I think it's a combination of kids,

[00:34:49] it's a combination of the time

[00:34:51] that you know this unrest was

[00:34:55] taking place in the house.

[00:34:57] In the music?

[00:34:58] In the music?

[00:34:59] Yes.

[00:35:00] Yeah, I'm out on this house 100%.

[00:35:04] Like I read then in this letter,

[00:35:06] you know, he was giving information about

[00:35:09] what he wanted for their funerals.

[00:35:12] And he said he wanted a low-cost burial service.

[00:35:16] And it was like,

[00:35:18] and then there was a part of the letter

[00:35:20] was to their minister

[00:35:22] about what he wanted at their funerals.

[00:35:24] I mean, this is just weird.

[00:35:26] Oh, crazy.

[00:35:27] Oh, but I made a note to come back to the watcher.

[00:35:31] So apparently,

[00:35:32] you know, like we said earlier,

[00:35:34] this happened in relative proximity

[00:35:36] to the house.

[00:35:37] I read it was like 10 minutes away.

[00:35:39] So in one of the episodes

[00:35:41] of the watcher,

[00:35:42] they sort of pay homage to this story

[00:35:45] and there is a man

[00:35:47] that while as maybe not the main character

[00:35:49] of the story they're covering

[00:35:51] is supposed to be like the John List character.

[00:35:54] So if you're a watcher,

[00:35:56] fan, go back

[00:35:57] and rewatch it

[00:35:59] and see if you can figure out who John List is.

[00:36:01] That's just lovely

[00:36:03] and it's a little bit more

[00:36:05] bit in full circle all in one.

[00:36:07] Yeah.

[00:36:08] So, okay.

[00:36:09] Well, this was a creepy story,

[00:36:11] but you know, I think it's one of the ones

[00:36:13] that I actually did not know anything about.

[00:36:15] So even though I had a

[00:36:17] mercosmist wanted,

[00:36:19] maybe because it's a little bit older,

[00:36:21] maybe because it's in a different part

[00:36:23] of the country.

[00:36:24] I wasn't aware of it.

[00:36:25] So this was really good.

[00:36:26] Thank you Heather for educating us

[00:36:29] and for all of our lovely listeners.

[00:36:32] I'm going to go to the live star review

[00:36:34] and tell us where you want to come and join

[00:36:36] your podcast club

[00:36:38] for our first live Zoom mini-sad.

[00:36:40] We would love that.

[00:36:42] And it looks no, did you know about this story?

[00:36:44] I know.

[00:36:45] I don't know about you ladies,

[00:36:47] but like after our recent Marvin Gaye episode,

[00:36:49] I had multiple friends text me going,

[00:36:51] Marvin Gaye was murdered

[00:36:53] like folks had no idea about that.

[00:36:55] So let us know if you know about this story as well.

[00:36:58] Have a great day.

[00:36:59] Thanks.

[00:37:00] Bye.

[00:37:02] Hey y'all.

[00:37:03] Thanks for listening and being a part of our

[00:37:05] Crime Estate family.

[00:37:06] If you're curious about today's featured crime estate,

[00:37:08] you can find additional photos and details

[00:37:10] from today's episode online at crimeestate.com

[00:37:13] or on Facebook and Instagram

[00:37:15] by following at Crime Estate Podcast.

[00:37:17] Have a crime estate we should cover?

[00:37:19] Let us know.

[00:37:20] Shoot us an email at crimeestatepodcast

[00:37:22] at gmail.com

[00:37:23] Until next week.