Lord Lucan doesn't deny that he was at the home on Belgrave Street the night the murder occurred. But, was he the timely hero as he suggests or was he the culprit? Listen as Heather, Elena and Melanie discuss the crime that is considered one of Britain's biggest mysteries.
The Real Estate: 46 Lower Belgrave Street | London, England
Show Notes & Sources at: crimeestate.com
This episode edited by the oh-so-talented Elena.
[00:00:00] At the intersection of true crime and real estate, you'll find Crime Estate. I'm Heather.
[00:00:10] And my name is Elena. As real estate agents and true crime junkies, we view crimes through
[00:00:14] a different lens. So walk through the door of some of the most notorious true crimes
[00:00:18] with us and discover how sometimes the scene of the crime has its own story to tell.
[00:00:25] Hey, y'all. We are back with another Crime Estate podcast. And this one is, if I do say so myself,
[00:00:32] a pretty exceptional story. And I'm willing to bet that it's one you all have never heard of,
[00:00:38] even though, guys, it is considered to be one of the greatest unsolved mysteries in British history.
[00:00:45] I'm your host, Heather, here with my friend, fellow real estate agent and co-host, Elena.
[00:00:49] Hey, that's me.
[00:00:50] That's you. It is.
[00:00:52] And of course, we are joined as always by our also talented producer and commentator, Melanie.
[00:00:56] Hey, ladies.
[00:00:57] Hey, lovely ladies as well. I'm intrigued. I love a good British mystery,
[00:01:03] so I can't wait to hear about today's episode.
[00:01:05] Well, just for you, Melanie, let's just go ahead and jump right in.
[00:01:09] The subject of today's story is the dashing and mysterious Lord Lucan.
[00:01:15] Hold on. Can you say it in a British accent?
[00:01:16] No. No, I can't. I wish I could. That'd be great.
[00:01:20] Now, Lord Lucan was actually born as Richard John Bingham in London in 1934, which,
[00:01:27] if you know your history even a little, you'll know was not the ideal time to live in Europe.
[00:01:32] Adolf Hitler came to power in Germany in 1933, and this laid the groundwork for the young
[00:01:39] Lord Lucan and his siblings to be evacuated to Wales when he was only five years old.
[00:01:45] Eventually, the family decided that even Wales wasn't safe enough,
[00:01:50] and the children were sent to stay with a friend of the family in the States.
[00:01:53] Now, ladies, if you are going to be sent to live with a friend, this is the friend you want to be
[00:01:58] sent to. Marsha Brady Tucker was a multi-millionaire, being the daughter of one of the founders of
[00:02:05] the Consolidated Energy Company and the Union Carbide Company. So essentially from my quick
[00:02:11] google-ing what I could tell, her dad like powered New York City. Wow. And they're still doing,
[00:02:17] I mean it's still a company that does like energy and gas and all the things in New York.
[00:02:22] And she was obviously a lovely lady. I read her a bituary in the New York Times,
[00:02:26] and it described her as among other things, a civic affairs leader who lived to the
[00:02:31] distinguished age of 92. Lord Lucan and his siblings lived with Marsha Brady Tucker for
[00:02:37] over five years while the war raged on in Europe. And the siblings were said to have wanted for nothing
[00:02:45] while living there. Lord Lucan enrolled at the Harvey School in New York, and side note here,
[00:02:49] I think we've mentioned to our listeners that all of us have boys finishing the eighth grade
[00:02:54] and rolling a ninth for the fall, and we have lived and breathed high school applications
[00:03:00] over the last few months. We are all thrilled to say that our boys got accepted into their
[00:03:04] first choice schools, which are all public and free. Thank God so we can continue to feed ourselves.
[00:03:09] But given our recent history with private school applications, I had to look up what it
[00:03:14] cost to attend the Harvey School in grades 10 through 12. Any guesses? A lot more than free.
[00:03:22] Yeah a lot more than free. It was the early 40s? This, no, what would this, yeah probably early
[00:03:27] 40s, late 30s, early 40s. Yes. No, but what about now? But oh yeah. Oh this is still a school
[00:03:33] today. Oh yeah. Oh gosh. It's a distinguished school today. Distinguished school. 50,000. Yeah I mean
[00:03:39] you're really close. Oh really? 53,640 dollars. Yeah I mean that's just your like basic tuition.
[00:03:48] That's insane. After attending the Harvey School Lord Lucan went on to attend another very
[00:03:52] prominent school Eaton, which was back in Berkshire, England during post-World War II.
[00:03:58] Yeah so my knowledge of boarding schools is obviously pretty limited, but even I am familiar
[00:04:04] with a few of these like brand names of which Eaton is one of them and I quickly looked it up
[00:04:10] and it was founded way back in 1440 by King Henry VI. That's crazy. Yeah I mean
[00:04:19] I think of like old being 1800s 1700s ruled 1400s can't even. Can you even battle that?
[00:04:26] No no and to think that a school has been around that long so pretty impressive but
[00:04:31] they got to me to thinking about one of the things that always confuses me is that in England they call
[00:04:39] what you and I would consider a private school to be a public school and so they you know they
[00:04:44] refer to the boys like oh those public school boys and so I never understood because to what
[00:04:49] you and I would consider a private school they consider a public school and so I had to look
[00:04:54] it up and what it basically means is that it is open to any fee paying student and not just those
[00:05:03] who live in a specific area so for them like a regular school would be like okay like our
[00:05:08] neighborhood school but a public school is as long as you're willing to pay and I guess they're
[00:05:14] admitted then you can go to it so anyway that so Eaton is a public school but using England's
[00:05:23] definition of public there. That's very interesting yeah so Eaton's reputation is very strong and has
[00:05:29] lots of you know distinguished alumni of course Prince William and Prince Harry. Yeah I'm with
[00:05:35] you Mel like I am also not like super familiar with all the what we would call private schools
[00:05:40] but Eaton is like just has a brand name that everybody knows and of course you know even being
[00:05:46] at prestigious Eaton after World War II was very different than being in New York and still different
[00:05:51] than today and the wealthy Bingham family couldn't escape the rationing and economic realities of the
[00:05:57] post-war environment but John took an interest in bookmaking and gambling even if he was not
[00:06:03] impressive in the classroom. After Eaton he briefly served in the British military in
[00:06:08] West Germany before taking a job at a bank William Brant's sons and co making 500 pounds per year
[00:06:15] and of course I looked it up that equates to about 14,000 dollars in today's American dollars so I can't
[00:06:22] that doesn't seem like nearly enough to meet his fancy lifestyle you know he had gotten used to
[00:06:29] the very finer things in life so he was not making a lot of money for how he lived at the bank
[00:06:35] and shortly after he began his career at the bank Lord Lucan met and became fast friends with the
[00:06:40] incredibly wealthy stockbroker Stephen Raphael and the two spent a considerable amount of time
[00:06:47] and money doing what we often refer to on the show as rps rich people shift traveling on ski vacations
[00:06:54] racing boats and playing obscene amounts of poker and batgammon so much so that Lord Lucan had
[00:07:00] several batgammon championships under his belt well that's interesting you know the more episodes
[00:07:06] we do the more parallels we seem to find I mean I'm not saying that playing batgammon is an omen
[00:07:11] of bad things to come but the last story we covered where someone played batgammon a lot did
[00:07:15] not end very well yeah you're right I was trying to remember the name of it and I think it
[00:07:20] was the Shelly Colvin case so this is for maybe our newer listeners was one of a more modern
[00:07:27] story that we had done um of someone who had died in the 21st century in New York City and whose
[00:07:34] husband sure played a lot of batgammon so I don't know I mean would not have thought that batgammon
[00:07:42] was one of the dangerous uh games but um way to keep her husbands away from it I know where
[00:07:47] the where there's smoke there's fire yeah yeah that was one of our first episodes and if you
[00:07:51] all haven't listened to it you should definitely go back and give it a listen though
[00:07:54] remember we weren't quite as polished by Finn because we're so polished now um but you know as is
[00:08:01] often the case in gambling of any sort you can have huge wins and unfortunately huge losses
[00:08:08] and Lord Lucan was no exception in one infamous outing he said to have lost 10 000 pounds of the
[00:08:15] casino in one night that's insane yeah are y'all big gamblers no I feel sick to my stomach
[00:08:22] when I'm if I'm sitting at a table and lose too much money I don't like it not at all
[00:08:27] I like gambling but I wouldn't consider myself a big gambler I can go with like 200 dollars and
[00:08:34] you know spend easily all night and I'm annoyed if I have like lost any of it when I get back
[00:08:40] like and so I uh don't have big losses but I also don't have big wins like you know you'll
[00:08:46] see me at the craps table doing betting the line so five ten maybe fifteen dollars on on a hand or
[00:08:54] around so um but I am content in having my drinks all night long my husband not that he's a big gambler
[00:09:02] either but you know he will get annoyed when I'm standing over his table because like he likes to
[00:09:06] play blackjack and I'll be trying to take some of his poker chips I'm like no or chips him like
[00:09:11] no no that's too much on this hand you're rationing him at the table I like do the minimum
[00:09:19] so yeah the only time he won a lot was uh when I'd gone to bed so maybe yeah big wins big losses
[00:09:28] yeah well okay so back to lord lukin in his gambling habits he decided he just might make
[00:09:35] gambling his profession and after six years in the banking industry he quit telling those
[00:09:40] that inquired why should I work in a bank when I can earn a year's money and one single night at the
[00:09:46] tables I'm blaming for that I mean he does make a point there I mean if it was really true I think
[00:09:51] we would all be taking up gambling but I have a feeling it's not quite that easy you know one
[00:09:56] of the things that we should probably mention here is you know you're kind of referring to him
[00:10:00] as lord lukin you know for consistency sake throughout you know your discussion but
[00:10:04] I kind of quickly looked it up and you know and I think we'll talk about it later but
[00:10:09] he was actually kind of the lord Bingham his birth name at this point in time because the lukin is the
[00:10:16] family nobility and you know yeah you're absolutely right and that's the whole like English
[00:10:22] aristocracy title name changing titles I don't just sort of blows my mind but yeah like you know
[00:10:28] like you look at Prince William and his actual titles and his actual name like takes several
[00:10:34] sentences long and I'm like yeah we just go by first name yeah but you're right I'm gonna refer
[00:10:40] to him as Lord lukin for sake of consistency here now let's go back to the three years about three
[00:10:46] years after he took up life as a professional gambler he met his future wife Veronica Duncan in
[00:10:53] 1963 and according to the Oxford Press lukin was described by his friends as a shy and taciturn
[00:10:59] man but with this tall stature and quote luxuriant guardsman moustache and masculine pursuits his
[00:11:08] exploits made him popular and you all really need to check out our socials if you're listening
[00:11:13] to this episode to see a picture of the dashing couple that Veronica and Lord lukin made yeah
[00:11:19] I had to peek at some of the pictures of him and he actually was pretty handsome sort of like a
[00:11:22] Brad Pitt with the thick moustache yeah actually I don't cover this in the episode but
[00:11:29] he had been asked to audition for one of the James Bond films so picture like Brad Pitt James Bond
[00:11:37] he was very striking yeah tall I mean I kind of felt bad looking I'm thinking yeah he's kind of a
[00:11:43] good-looking guy yeah and much like some of these Brad Pitt's James Bond types he drove an
[00:11:50] Aston Martin raced motor yachts and was um you know just debonair all around now Veronica herself
[00:11:58] didn't grow up as wealthy and privileged as Lord lukin and she went on to study art in college
[00:12:04] later moving to London to live with her sister Catherine now Catherine met and married William
[00:12:11] shan kid that's I'm gonna guess that's how that's pronounced I'm not really sure
[00:12:16] and he was not only extremely wealthy but he played a prominent role in London society
[00:12:23] and let me just see if I can get this family tree straight so y'all bear with me as I go slowly here
[00:12:28] William was the half-brother to Lady Diana Spencer's stepfather or as she was more commonly
[00:12:37] learned all of us Diana princess of Wales so she was married to Princess Diana's half-brother
[00:12:46] stepfather's half-brother like 27 steps removed but okay okay okay hey you know I think in the
[00:12:53] societal circle I say that just to sort of like show you the people that Catherine was now running
[00:12:59] gotcha yeah gotcha this is why and I've seen it like in books and movies in England they
[00:13:05] actually would publish like kind of encyclopedias of the nobility with like org charts you know like
[00:13:12] explaining like how people are you know the seventh son of that you know like how they're
[00:13:17] related to each other I can't even imagine no but I think if you're like even vaguely related
[00:13:24] to Diana princess of Wales like you're real top tier in society and so you know Veronica tagged
[00:13:33] along with Catherine to a lot of these fancy society events and it was while attending
[00:13:39] a golf tournament with her sister that she met Lord Lucan now the two were married by the end
[00:13:45] of the same year 1963 and just guess who could not be more pleased by this marriage than anyone else
[00:13:54] you guys are looking at me with blank stare sister her sister was very pleased that so that's
[00:13:58] yes yes good choice actually Lord Lucan's father the Earl of Lucan was so thrilled that like his
[00:14:06] son was getting married I think he was probably thinking maybe this will settle him down he'll
[00:14:11] no longer be racing all these yachts he'll come into the family business he'll like be a
[00:14:17] be a grown man and not this like boy a raster cat yes I think it's oh sorry babe oh no
[00:14:23] I think it's interesting because she did not come from money but he was still
[00:14:27] happy to have her as part of the family and other stories that we've told it's quite the opposite
[00:14:32] no you're right about that that is interesting maybe just because she was Catherine's sister
[00:14:38] okay that makes sense yeah his dad though Alana was so thrilled that he provided them with a
[00:14:45] marriage settlement designed to give them enough money to purchase a home and that is
[00:14:50] exactly what Lord Lucan did buying the property at 46 lower bellgrave street um what's a marriage
[00:14:58] settlement and is that just a thing rich people do we've seen it before in some of our episodes
[00:15:03] that buying your children a house is what just people do is that similar to this I mean I think so
[00:15:10] I don't know if our parents got that memo mine didn't I just felt fortunate that my parents
[00:15:15] paid for like a nice place for me to live during college I can't even imagine
[00:15:20] receiving or expecting to receive like something as grandiose as a how I feel really bad I think
[00:15:27] actually yeah but maybe that's American culture where we're like we feel like we have to do for
[00:15:34] ourselves we're very much self-starters yeah I mean if you let me I go to like tv for my whole
[00:15:43] knowledge of the aristocrats in England but you know a lot of these fancy nobility
[00:15:51] families had these old homes and those estates that they would pass down that makes sense and so
[00:15:58] so maybe in this sense they weren't passing down a big house but it you know the property
[00:16:04] and the historical value I don't know maybe that there's something there but the marriage
[00:16:09] settlement is money is that what I'm yeah it was money and it was designed to set them up with
[00:16:14] their own place to live and so what what they did with this settlement Lord Lucan purchased
[00:16:22] the home at 46 lower bellgrave street like I said for 17 500 pounds and it was actually located
[00:16:29] at the corner of bellgrave street and eaton square which is considered to be a very posh
[00:16:35] neighborhood as the Brits would say and in fact for many years eaton square has been considered
[00:16:40] the highest priced real estate in London wow so this was like a nice area that they were buying a
[00:16:45] home in the neighborhood of bellgravia is smack dab right in the middle of London just west of
[00:16:51] buckingham palace and is known for its affluence julian fellows the creator of down abbey also
[00:16:57] has a tv show about 19th century london called bellgravia that takes place in this neighborhood
[00:17:02] have you all seen that I have yeah I'm a sucker what's it on Mel maybe I'm pbs okay yeah I'll take
[00:17:10] a look but yeah it's all right well we'll find it and link it in the show notes it's fun if you like
[00:17:14] that type of you know show yeah I do yeah guilty pleasure you know elevated guilty pleasure
[00:17:21] so this early 19th century six-story home which is still there today has some
[00:17:26] serious curb appeal a ride iron fence and hedges separates the house from the sidewalk
[00:17:31] and steps leading up to a black front door with an arched transom window over it
[00:17:36] and that mirrors the arch windows on each side of the home now the main floor or the like the
[00:17:42] street level floor is built with white stone and a wrought iron terrace extends from the next
[00:17:48] story we've posted pictures of the house on our social media channels so be sure to check them out
[00:17:53] you really don't want to miss this one it's a pretty stunning property now in addition to
[00:17:58] purchasing this home and redecorating it to lady lukin's style and preferences lord lukin used some
[00:18:04] of the marriage settlement from his father to pay off his gambling debts i'm not sure that's what
[00:18:08] his father had in mind definitely not like he said some some of us um and you know unfortunately
[00:18:16] only two months after they were married lord lukin's father the girl of lukin passed away
[00:18:21] leaving his son his title and a 250 000 pound inheritance uh for those in wondering that's
[00:18:29] just under 5.5 million dollars in today's dollars so i mean a healthy inheritance so he's on like a
[00:18:37] nice guy i feel bad the earl of lukin yeah yeah i mean all we know is he gave a sense of money but
[00:18:42] sounds pretty nice now these titles serve to make the newlyweds the earl and countess of lukin
[00:18:50] and the newly titled family went on to have three children over the course of six years first lady
[00:18:57] frances bingham born in 1964 and then the heir apparent george bingham the ape earl of lukin
[00:19:03] born in 1967 and last the baby of the family lady camilla bingham born in 1970 and as many wealthy
[00:19:12] families do Veronica hired a nanny shortly after the birth of her first daughter the nanny
[00:19:17] lily and jinkens was a welcome addition for the earl who now could take Veronica with him
[00:19:22] when he went gambling and went out on his other pursuits and according to the book lukin not guilty
[00:19:28] by sally moore lukin's daily routine consisted of breakfast at nine a.m coffee dealing with the
[00:19:34] morning's letters reading the newspapers and playing the piano he sometimes jogged in the
[00:19:39] park and took his doberman for walks followed by lunch at the clearmont club as one does
[00:19:44] and then afternoon games a backgammon returning home to change into black tie the earl typically
[00:19:50] spent the remainder of the day at the clearmont gambling into the early hours watched sometimes
[00:19:56] by Veronica i feel like i'm a little bit in a delton evie episode at this point i feel totally
[00:20:02] bad for the wealthy do you because that sounds so lovely just heartbreaking the life he led
[00:20:09] we are also talking about late 60s early 70s here like everything he his life does not seem to align
[00:20:19] with what we know as the cultural revolution going on in america and in england in the 60s and 70s
[00:20:26] he is stuck in the past yeah um it reminds me a little bit if y'all been watching palm royal
[00:20:33] oh yeah i think that's like 60s 70s but like lunching at the club i mean that sounds lovely
[00:20:39] what is that streaming on uh apple is it apple i think it might be i think it's apple it's really
[00:20:46] good yeah it is really good christian way right yes yes and she looks really good at it holy crap i
[00:20:52] was thinking the same thing she looks amazing she looks a lot younger and she really i mean i mean
[00:20:58] i'm not saying she's old i'm just saying she i don't know if she looks really good yeah whatever
[00:21:02] she's doing i want to hear about yeah all right well back to lord lukin um you know it's interesting so
[00:21:12] in another sort of tie-in to some of the crimes and the episodes we've covered lady lukin suffered
[00:21:18] for what we would now call postpartum depression after the birth of her second child and this
[00:21:23] led her to be pretty disinterested in lord lukin's hobbies like she no longer enjoyed
[00:21:27] watching him play backgammon late at night or going golfing with him i bless her for enjoying
[00:21:33] that to begin with um and her depression became so severe that lukin tried to admit her to the
[00:21:39] psychiatric ward at some point after their second child was born and look y'all i think i've
[00:21:44] mentioned this on the podcast before i had postpartum anxiety after my son was was born
[00:21:50] and you know that's different but very similar i didn't sleep for 18 months and i was not the
[00:21:55] best version of myself and it's really a significant reason that we only have one child
[00:22:00] not two or three um in fact if you have severe postpartum symptoms your chances of that reoccurring
[00:22:08] or worsening with each pregnancy is very high and that's exactly what happened to lord lukin
[00:22:13] it's definitely one of those things that can be exacerbated by additional pregnancies um
[00:22:17] and so her worsening mental health after the birth of their third child combined with lord lukin's like
[00:22:25] erratic income and this accumulation of debt from his gambling losses really started taking a toll
[00:22:32] on their marriage and so lord lukin moved out of the family home and into a temporary space
[00:22:38] while the two began divorce and custody proceedings now lord lukin wanted full custody
[00:22:44] of his children and a bitter custody battle ensued and while that seems out of the ordinary from our
[00:22:50] american point of reference especially in the 1970s to think about a father having full custody of
[00:22:55] the children from what i've read about european society it's actually pretty customary for
[00:23:01] peers of the british realm to obtain custody of their situation of their children excuse me
[00:23:06] in situations like this um and so the battles in this custody war the two were engaged in were
[00:23:14] pretty fierce at one point lord lukin took out a court order to obtain the children and took
[00:23:19] the two youngest children from the nanny while she was out on a walk with them and then he went
[00:23:23] and picked up his oldest daughter from school taking all three of the kids back to his home
[00:23:28] in another instance or actually probably several instances he would call lady lukin and say
[00:23:34] things just to elicit like an argumentative response out of her although while taping and
[00:23:38] recording their conversations to support his position that she was unfit to care for the children
[00:23:45] and of course her mental health came into play the lady lukin claimed that she had been
[00:23:49] improperly treated and that with the right treatment she was fine to care for the children
[00:23:54] and she was smart enough that during that window where he had the court order and took the
[00:23:59] kids she checked herself into a mental health institution so that she had doctors who could
[00:24:05] attest to her state um and sort of argued for her ability to have the kids smart however
[00:24:12] six months into the battle lady lukin won the war and was granted custody of all three of her
[00:24:18] children now being the sole caregiver of all three kids on her own lady lukin hired a new
[00:24:25] nanny sandra rivet and then only 10 weeks later on november 7th 1974 at 9 45 p.m a bloody and hysterical
[00:24:36] lady lukin burst into the plumber's arms bar on belgravia street and shouted help me help me help
[00:24:43] me i've just escaped from being murdered he's in the house he's murdered the nanny yikes yeah
[00:24:51] she was bloody and had suffered obvious head wounds so much so that those at the bar called
[00:24:56] an ambulance to treat her now in a subsequent police interview lady lukin reports that on
[00:25:01] the evening of the crime the nanny went down to the basement to make lady lukin some tea
[00:25:06] when she failed to bring back the beverage Veronica went in search of her the kitchen
[00:25:11] was dark when she entered and she was quickly hit on the head by a blunt object as the
[00:25:16] intruder told her to be quiet she recognized the intruder's voice it was the voice of her
[00:25:21] estranged husband lord lukin during the fight lady lukin reportedly managed to get away by grabbing
[00:25:28] the genitals of her assailant so at 10 30 the same evening only 45 minutes after lady lukin burst
[00:25:35] into the bar lord lukin called his mother and told her that there had been a catastrophe at the
[00:25:40] house and asked her to go retrieve the children she arrived to find a police presence at the property
[00:25:47] indeed the police had arrived to a bloody murder scene and according to the website lord lukin.com
[00:25:53] the police officers who arrived to investigate found a substantial house with a ground floor
[00:25:58] a basement and four upper floors forcing open the front door they searched the premises
[00:26:04] and found the children in their bedrooms unharmed side note thank god the door to
[00:26:08] the basement was open there was no light in the hall and so they fetched a flashlight they descended
[00:26:14] the stairs to the breakfast room and found the walls splashed with blood a pool of blood on the
[00:26:18] floor with some male footprints in it and near the door connecting the breakfast room
[00:26:24] to the kitchen a blood stained sack the top of the sack was folded over but not fastened
[00:26:31] inside was the corpse of sandra rivet the children's nanny she had been battered
[00:26:36] to death with a blunt interest instrument in the hallway was a length of lead piping covered in
[00:26:42] surgical tape very bent out of shape and heavily bloodstained the back door was unlocked now it
[00:26:50] didn't take long for the police decide that they needed to talk to lord lukin himself but when
[00:26:54] they arrived at his flat they found it empty so where was lord lukin at this time he had driven
[00:27:01] about 45 minutes away to the home of his friends ian and susan max welscott when he arrived ian was
[00:27:08] out of town but susan led him in later noting to authorities that she was surprised to see him so
[00:27:13] disheveled he told susan that he had been walking by his home at 46 belgavius street earlier in
[00:27:18] the evening and when he looked into the basement window he saw someone fighting with lady lukin
[00:27:24] he ran in the front door and down the basement steps slipping in blood on his way to save his
[00:27:31] estranged wife the intruder seeing him running towards him fled the scene of the crime as lord
[00:27:38] lukin tried to console his wife and take her upstairs to tend her injuries she became hysterical
[00:27:44] and fled the house lord lukin quickly realized that he would be the prime suspect and so he
[00:27:49] fled the house as well now on his way to ian and susan's house he made three calls first he called
[00:27:55] his mother to retrieve the children as we previously discussed and second he called a neighbor on
[00:28:00] belgavius street mrs floriman who by the way recounts that someone rang her bell around 10
[00:28:05] p.m that night of the crime and assuming it was just kids playing a prank she ignored it
[00:28:10] she also ignored the call she got from lord lukin claiming that he was incoherent so she
[00:28:14] just hung up the phone and went back to bed why not why not and then the next morning she finds
[00:28:20] blood on her doorstep indicating that perhaps lord lukin was the one ringing her doorbell that evening
[00:28:27] he also placed a call to his brother-in-law for ronica's sister's husband who remember
[00:28:31] was extremely wealthy and well connected but was unable to reach him upon arriving at ian and
[00:28:37] susan's house he's phoned his mother at 12 15 to verify that she had the children safely
[00:28:41] at her home and then he tried his brother-in-law one more time but again was unable to reach him
[00:28:48] now in an account of his visit susan says quote my husband was in london and i was alone apart
[00:28:54] from two of my six children who were asleep upstairs i was surprised when lord lukin arrived at
[00:29:00] the late hour i invited him in and we sat and chatted over a cup of coffee in the sitting
[00:29:04] room for a couple of hours i offered him a meal but he did not want one we had a long talk
[00:29:10] he sat down and wrote two letters he gave me the two letters and i posted them for him
[00:29:16] the two letters were written to the brother-in-law he had been unable to reach by phone
[00:29:20] in the first letter he gave the same account of the night he had given to susan
[00:29:25] the one about walking by and seeing an intruder attacking his wife and then he went on to say
[00:29:30] v has demonstrated her hatred of me in the past and went to anything to see me accused
[00:29:36] for george and frances to go through life knowing their father had stood in the dock for attempted
[00:29:40] murder would be too much when they are old enough to understand explain to them the dream of paranoia
[00:29:47] and look after them and according to susan lord lukin left about one thirty a.m. and you all
[00:29:54] that was the last known sighting of lord lukin wow i have some questions okay okay number one
[00:30:02] if y'all grabbed your husband's genitals in the dark would you know it was him
[00:30:10] um i think i would know my husband's body in general in the dark yeah like his like physique
[00:30:16] like his presence right yeah what and i read a little bit about this because you know you got me
[00:30:22] excited and you know she understood she heard his voice she saw his voice it was in the dark
[00:30:30] but a light bulb had actually been unscrewed like you know like out and apparently when she grabs his
[00:30:38] genitals uh she yeah wow heather you're looking at me so seriously um like it like knocks some
[00:30:47] sense into him and so she tells them um that it's okay so they literally go upstairs at that
[00:30:55] point to the bathroom and start to clean up and then and then she uses the opportunity while he's
[00:31:03] in the bathroom to then run and then go to the neighborhood pub like so it it like she absolutely
[00:31:11] knew it was him it wasn't just that i mean in the beginning she didn't but you know they talked
[00:31:16] afterwards yeah that's so bizarre yeah but also smart on her part like she was probably thinking
[00:31:21] oh my god he's gonna kill me let me see if i can convince him that like we can calm down the situation
[00:31:29] and that's what she did yeah yeah and and the nanny and you know apologies that we're not going into
[00:31:34] a lot of details about her but she was a 29 year old woman she um was kind of separate from her
[00:31:41] husband she was a mother uh but she normally had Thursday nights off man and so she had changed
[00:31:49] schedule and this was that Thursday night so there was definitely a lot of beliefs that this was a
[00:31:56] ax well not an accident in the murder but not it not necessarily she was not the intended victim
[00:32:02] necessarily that's interesting that happens a lot i feel like in the stories that we've told
[00:32:07] that there's been instances where they weren't supposed to be there or they were supposed
[00:32:10] to be there or they just popped by for a second and disaster happens sad yeah and it comes out later
[00:32:18] and i don't i don't think i have this in the notes but it comes out later that
[00:32:21] the kids had told lord lukin about the nanny's schedule so he would have known that she had
[00:32:28] Thursday nights off but she had switched and gone out Wednesday night that week and so
[00:32:32] she was home this Thursday evening yeah so do y'all want to know what happens next yes okay
[00:32:40] so it should come as no surprise that an extensive manhunt for lord lukin commenced
[00:32:45] very quickly and in fact police had a murder warrant for him within three days of the crime
[00:32:51] and yet another similarity to another crime we've covered police found his abandoned car but never
[00:32:57] found the man himself bonus points listeners if you know which episode i'm referring to right now
[00:33:04] can we say can we guess i mean you better know which one is it the count yeah count de Leon
[00:33:11] um also that was was that in england france that was france yes that was that was france
[00:33:17] they found count de Leon's car but couldn't find him either okay right to this day so what is the
[00:33:22] difference between a count and a lord is one beneath the other well you know i love me a little
[00:33:29] good google research um so in url so remember the the lord you know he goes by lord but he
[00:33:37] is an url he's actually the seventh url of lukin um and his son then becomes the eighth url is one
[00:33:43] of the peerage and so they are actually um part of the house of lords and other kinds of peers are
[00:33:50] like this counts and barons and all the sons of a peer um of the rank of url and above go by
[00:33:58] their father's title but basically the five ranks of british nobility in descending order are
[00:34:04] duke marquis url this count and baron is it marquis or is it marquis i think it's the marquis
[00:34:11] yeah probably marquis you're probably right sorry i can read i i don't necessarily can
[00:34:16] pronounce i'm just thinking of my um lord or lady bridgerton series i'm pretty sure it's the marquis
[00:34:22] such and such gee that's where i should oh but see maybe i'm thinking of like in france french i
[00:34:27] feel like it might be a marquis oh i bet it is i bet you're right and then yeah yeah okay but what's
[00:34:32] the crazy part about this to get back to your question alina is that a count and a url are the same
[00:34:41] equivalency um so uh count is used usually in the european nobility like in france while url
[00:34:51] is in the british nobility okay basically they're equals okay so basically bad guys of url slash
[00:34:59] count ranks that um then disappear yeah yeah okay now as it pertains to lord lukin though
[00:35:07] there have been regular suspected sightings of him for years most recently in 2020 when a man in
[00:35:13] australia with a remarkably similar appearance was accused of being the runaway aristocrat
[00:35:20] however the australian metropolitan police released a statement in april of 2021 that said
[00:35:26] following extensive inquiries and investigations made by the australian federal police on behalf
[00:35:31] of the metropolitan police the person was conclusively eliminated from the investigation
[00:35:38] now i want y'all to remember he disappeared in 1974 okay and an inquest into the murder of
[00:35:46] sandra rivett a year later convicted lord lukin of the crime it was the first time a member of
[00:35:53] the house of lords had been convicted of murder since 1760 and lord lukin was legally declared
[00:36:00] dead in 1999 however his eldest son didn't inherit his title until a change in british law occurred
[00:36:09] in 2013 and actually after that law occurred he had to like go back and go through some legal
[00:36:15] uh acrobat maybe to to get the title still so he didn't get the title until 2016
[00:36:24] lady lukin continued to have mental health issues throughout her life unfortunately in 1982
[00:36:30] eight years after the crime occurred lady lukin's sister christina and her husband bill were granted
[00:36:35] custody of all three of her children it said that lady lukin never forgave her teenage son for
[00:36:41] wanting to live with her sister and this started a rift between mother and children that would last
[00:36:47] the rest of lady lukin's life so sad it's heartbreaking i mean as moms ourselves like i
[00:36:52] can't imagine anything our kids could do that would make me not want to be a part of their lives
[00:36:59] now in 2015 lady lukin told a reporter for the daily mail i did not suffer a mental breakdown
[00:37:06] custody of my children was transferred to the shand kids because my son declared in an affidavit
[00:37:11] he would find it much more congenial to live as a part of the family of his aunt and uncle
[00:37:17] my son bartered the accidental privilege of his birth to live as a part of another family day yeah
[00:37:24] she wasn't parsing words here lady lukin lived out the rest of her life at the deer by cottage
[00:37:29] that her husband was living out while they were separated and just around the corner from 46
[00:37:33] belgravia street going on to sadly take her own life in 2017 at the age of 80 after presumably
[00:37:40] assuming that she had parkinsons she never reconciled with her children and went on to leave them all
[00:37:47] absolutely nothing in her will that is so sad which is all around it's sad
[00:37:55] yeah i mean it really is sad it coincidentally there had been interviews published with her
[00:38:01] in in the british magazines that same year of 2017 when she died and it and she kind of lived alone
[00:38:12] she you know her day consisted of going on a walk and going to the public library
[00:38:17] and she had not seen her family since the 80s i mean like that i mean was just really kind
[00:38:24] heartbreaking and she seemed almost defiant in the interviews about it okay so i want to know what
[00:38:32] you all think happened to lord lukin but first i want to read you this quote according to an
[00:38:37] article in The Guardian the late daily mirror journalist garth gibbs who died in 2011 used to
[00:38:44] claim that his quote most spectacular success in journalism was actually not finding lord lukin
[00:38:51] he said i have successfully not found him in more exotic spots than anybody else he recounted
[00:38:57] i spent three glorious weeks not finding him in cape town magical days and nights not finding him
[00:39:02] in the black mountains of wales and wonderful and successful breaks not finding him in macao either
[00:39:08] or in hong kong or even in green turtle k in bahamas where you can find anyone that cracks me up
[00:39:14] i love that i really think this guy would i would be in front of them i really like that since
[00:39:19] humor i mean he's like if you want to pay me to go like searching for him around the world yes yes
[00:39:27] i will do that the more exotic location forget this real estate gig that we've got going on let's
[00:39:33] let's start searching for lord lukin wherever anybody will send us you know it like this is
[00:39:38] 40 50 years down the line people change looks i read one one where they thought they saw him
[00:39:45] in india and there was like a quote from a guy there it was like a folks an english folks singer
[00:39:51] who was like retired living on the beach and his friends were all having quite a giggle at the
[00:39:57] fact that their buddy was being mistaken for a lord yeah i mean it's it's hilarious but once
[00:40:06] again this sounds like the count that yeah there were lots of signings yeah yeah okay so before
[00:40:12] you tell me what you think happened let me also comment that lady lukin was adamant that a man of
[00:40:18] lord lukin's breeding and caliber would have taken the quote honorable way out and killed himself
[00:40:24] and his car had been found near new castle there was a lot of gossip that he drowned himself
[00:40:30] like by jumping off of a ferry in another interview lady lukin said he got on a ferry and
[00:40:36] jumped off mid channel and was then chopped up by the preparer which is why his body was
[00:40:41] never found she said that as a power boat racer he had detailed knowledge of propellers
[00:40:46] i would have known precisely where to jump so that his remains were destroyed so do you all think
[00:40:53] that he has been able to successfully hide from the authority since the mid 70s i'm gonna go with
[00:40:58] yes i think that's really weird that that's just a weird thing for her to say about the
[00:41:03] helicopter and what i don't know the propellers the propellers yeah yeah which also have
[00:41:09] helicopters also have propellers but this would have been a boat oh did i say helicopter
[00:41:13] oh you did i'm sorry yeah i pictured a helicopter totally picked up he's like jumping up and out of
[00:41:19] the helicopter no he's not alive um that's helicopter propellers are terrifying have
[00:41:24] y'all been on one oh yeah they really feel like you need to like crawl on the ground so you're
[00:41:28] not anywhere close i agree yeah they are scary yeah i i think it's a weird statement that she did
[00:41:34] i'm gonna say if you're gonna commit suicide i feel well i don't know if trying to get chopped up
[00:41:42] by a propeller sounds like a nice way to go um you know there was a lot of other theories that
[00:41:48] he had a lot of rich friends that maybe he got his friend to uh uh like you know hide him away
[00:41:57] or that he was then murdered himself for his uh gambling debts you know it's funny his nickname
[00:42:04] was lucky lucky lukin but um all things i read he wasn't particularly successful at any of his
[00:42:12] gambling exploits or at least in the long term uh so i don't know i don't really think that
[00:42:19] he's in me obviously they did not track him uh the any money being uh have sconded with and so i
[00:42:27] think to have lived successfully in some of these countries even with having some friends um it takes
[00:42:33] a long you know how many friends are going to put you up for 40 years you know it i just but
[00:42:39] i can see like if you're a good gambler i mean he was you know quote unquote he was a gambler
[00:42:46] how you could like disappear be on a little island make a little bit of money
[00:42:50] go somewhere else just like play a card game have a hustle yeah you know like but he but he was so
[00:42:56] used to the finer things in life that i can't see him living like day to day like that he didn't
[00:43:02] have a lot of experience i mean this man whose day daily routine was wearing black tie
[00:43:08] so i'm not sure you know what his experience would be there you know in another court i read um
[00:43:15] from his wife was basically she's like yeah he doesn't like foreign things very much
[00:43:20] he basically likes english cooking like he was like yeah he would not have been able to handle
[00:43:26] being on the lamb and abroad for many years i mean i don't know i like the idea of a conspiracy
[00:43:33] i like the idea of them like arresting some you know 90-year-old man or or something like that
[00:43:38] realistically it wouldn't surprise me if he uh went because new castle was kind of by the ocean maybe
[00:43:46] and went and drowned himself jumped off one of the cliffs um i don't know i think that's more
[00:43:51] realistic but i kind of like the fantasy alana what do you think i think he did not kill himself
[00:43:58] got away and is just i like your theory about the hustling in every city he goes into and
[00:44:04] yeah or maybe he like married some rich like dowager duchess that's been exiled by her family
[00:44:10] oh oh there's come up with some movies yeah i did just come up with that i watch way too much tv
[00:44:16] well what does his family think um well so from what i've read his kids don't think
[00:44:25] that he committed this crime which may be part of the rift with the mom like what it was hard to
[00:44:32] there weren't a lot of like articles covering what that rift was like really about um
[00:44:37] but i mean she was adamant it was him oh yeah and they don't really think it was him and apparently
[00:44:43] i don't remember if it's the oldest daughter or the youngest daughter but one of them came down
[00:44:46] the steps during this whole like we're gonna take you up and clean you up in the bathroom
[00:44:52] scenario and he's like it's okay sweetie go back to bed it's like one of the kids saw him at the
[00:44:57] house but that plays into his story he was like he's not claiming he wasn't at the house
[00:45:02] he's claiming he was just meandering by and season attack as one does and like jumps in to save the day
[00:45:09] but the police were like they could only see it if they were laying down on the ground because
[00:45:14] remember this was like a basement that what that this occurred at yeah we've talked about these
[00:45:19] kind of houses before where they have like the level below the street level right and that's
[00:45:24] what this would have been you would be walking by and the window would actually be beneath your
[00:45:29] feet yeah yeah exactly like in like in a lot of major cities you might see that so i don't know like
[00:45:35] it seems far-fetched and it seems kind of like odd that they would have a lot of affinity or like
[00:45:42] for their father that you know you know that they were very young children and all the evidence
[00:45:48] and meaning he was a i mean he was a gamble or a profession a professional gambler but i think
[00:45:54] remember they were raised by his sister no her sister oh shit you're right oh yeah
[00:46:02] that makes it even worse yeah okay so it's time for the question of each episode ladies would
[00:46:09] you live there or would you list it i kind of feel like i would live there yeah i do too yeah
[00:46:14] and i would list it for sure yeah no i think so too and you know once again it's the vibe but i mean
[00:46:22] i also when it's a really old house i tend to feel like yeah there's probably been other
[00:46:27] tragedy tragedies over time and so from what we can tell and granted we don't have great records into
[00:46:34] you know english property records but it sounds like this property was probably passed down
[00:46:40] to his son and as part of the you know estate or inheritance for all we know like i think it's
[00:46:46] still owned by the lukin family today it's interesting yeah and i mean it's right there in
[00:46:52] the middle like right off of eaton square you can walk right past it okay well on that lovely note
[00:46:58] we hope you all enjoyed today's episode please leave us a review preferably on apple podcast or
[00:47:05] Spotify but you can leave a review anywhere tell your friends don't forget to tell us why
[00:47:09] you or your friend should be in our first ever live mini soad in your review we're about
[00:47:12] to draw for that so that's going to be really fun don't play backgammon and don't play back
[00:47:17] don't do it just my dad was a backgammon player but he gave it up so maybe that means he's okay
[00:47:23] yeah he's healed himself gave it up like i mean that just sounds like it was it was addictive
[00:47:29] yeah well you know i think we have a gambling can be backgammon said at the house well don't
[00:47:33] get it out it's like a weegee board now oh don't even bring that up all right y'all well until
[00:47:39] next week we'll see you then bye bye hey y'all thanks for listening and being a part of our crime
[00:47:47] estate family if you're curious about today's featured crime estate you can find additional
[00:47:51] photos and details from today's episode online at crimeestate.com or on facebook and instagram by
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[00:48:02] email at crimeestatepodcast at gmail.com until next week
[00:48:09] um