44 - The Unsolved Murders of Barry & Honey Sherman

[00:00:04] At the intersection of true crime and real estate, you'll find Crime Estate. I'm Heather.

[00:00:10] And my name is Elena. As real estate agents and true crime junkies, we view crimes through

[00:00:14] a different lens. So walk through the door of some of the most notorious true crimes with

[00:00:18] us and discover how sometimes the scene of the crime has its own story to tell.

[00:00:24] Hey y'all, we are back with another Crime Estate podcast for you guys. And this one

[00:00:31] is a pretty exceptional story that I think is probably new to most of our listeners as

[00:00:37] it didn't take place here in the United States. And Elena, for the second time in our podcast

[00:00:43] history, the incredible house or should I say mansion at the center of our story was for

[00:00:49] sale at the time the crime occurred. So not currently, but during the time the crime

[00:00:55] was interesting. Yeah.

[00:00:57] So before we jump in though, I do want to give a special thanks to our fab producer Melanie

[00:01:01] for her help on this episode because researching real estate outside of the United States is

[00:01:06] really challenging and tricky. And Mel worked her research wonders for us today. So thanks,

[00:01:10] Mel.

[00:01:11] Well, you know, I love a good deep dive. And I wasn't aware of the story before you

[00:01:16] brought it to my attention. And now I'm really excited to hear and talk more about

[00:01:21] it because even though I helped out with the research, you know, it's not really

[00:01:24] a story I was familiar with and it's pretty fascinating.

[00:01:27] I'm excited. But Heather, before you jump into today's episode, should we do a little housekeeping?

[00:01:31] Oh, yes. Okay. Sorry. I'm totally skipping ahead today. So yeah, let's do some housekeeping.

[00:01:36] Go for it.

[00:01:37] Okay. So first of all, we want to give a shout out to at Fall Girl 81 for the five

[00:01:41] star review on Apple podcast. Among other things she said, quote, it really makes

[00:01:45] you think if you could live in a residence where something horrible happened in quote,

[00:01:49] and that's exactly what we were going for. So thank you Fall Girl. Even though

[00:01:52] you guys gave us a shout out right before the end of the year, we're going to go

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[00:02:24] and them leave us a review as well to increase your chance of winning. We

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[00:02:33] and notify winners on our Instagram page. So make sure and sign your review

[00:02:37] with your insta handle. I feel so as the kids say, Oh, I feel so hip saying

[00:02:42] it. Yeah, we got your hair dyed. So you look younger. Well, hair dyed

[00:02:47] gray, gray gone. I think I think many of our listeners come late and

[00:02:51] follow the show so you know if you're the lucky winner. Okay, on today's crime

[00:02:55] estate, we are taking you all to Toronto, Ontario and into the home of

[00:03:00] generic drug magnate Barry Sherman and his wife, honey. As one more little

[00:03:06] shout out before I share this story with you, I should mention that we

[00:03:09] had what Melanie about 90% of this episode researched when I received

[00:03:13] a phone call from a friend of mine who had an episode suggestion. Turns

[00:03:18] out she worked with this guy named Barry Sherman in Canada. Can you believe

[00:03:22] that? She was like, I don't know that a lot of people know this story. You

[00:03:25] guys should totally cover it. You're already on it. Yeah. And it's so

[00:03:28] weird because I did not know the story. But then I was like telling my

[00:03:30] husband about it after you alerted me of it. And I'm like, how do I not

[00:03:34] know of this? It seems like one of those things that would be like

[00:03:37] on People Magazine. So I asked her if she had any color or anything

[00:03:43] she wanted to add before we sort of started the story. And she said,

[00:03:46] you know, he really wasn't a super social guy. He really only spoke to

[00:03:50] people who reported directly to him. So she worked down the hall from

[00:03:54] him for about two years. And she said they only exchanged words once.

[00:03:58] And that was because the printer or copier had jammed and he needed

[00:04:00] something. So she said he would just sort of basically pass you by

[00:04:04] like you weren't even there. But also she said sort of the running

[00:04:08] joke at his place of work was that he used one of the microwaves in

[00:04:13] the kitchen for his formulas. And so nobody would use that microwave

[00:04:17] to heat up their food because you just didn't know what had ever

[00:04:19] been in it. Okay. Yeah, that's weird. And I don't know if that's

[00:04:25] normal in the pharmaceutical industry, but I suspect not on

[00:04:30] the leadership to C level floor. I would think not. Yeah,

[00:04:35] I would think it maybe the lab. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Was the 70s?

[00:04:41] This is true. Yeah. No, this isn't the 70s. Maybe the 80s. Okay.

[00:04:45] Yeah. Or later. So anyway, I thought that was some interesting

[00:04:49] color and shout out to Beth for that. That was really fun. So

[00:04:53] back to Barry and honey Sherman. They were married in 1971.

[00:04:57] Only a few years after Barry graduated from MIT with a PhD in

[00:05:02] astrophysics. That's amazing. Yeah, smart guy. Yeah. Is your

[00:05:07] friend an astrophysicist? I don't really know what she does for

[00:05:11] a living. Okay, really honest. She's like one of those Chandler

[00:05:14] people to me. Like you've asked 27 times and you still don't

[00:05:18] quite understand. So of course, by all accounts, Barry is

[00:05:24] brilliant. And by the time he got married in 1971, he was

[00:05:28] already pretty successful. The same year he graduated with

[00:05:32] his PhD from MIT, he purchased his late uncle's pharmaceutical

[00:05:36] company from his estate and went on to turn this purchase

[00:05:39] into an empire. Later selling the company and starting the

[00:05:43] company that would be his legacy, Apatex with the

[00:05:46] proceeds. By 2016, Apatex employed over 10,000 people as

[00:05:52] one of Canada's largest drug manufacturers with over 260

[00:05:56] products selling in over 115 countries with revenues of

[00:06:01] 1.5 billion. That's with a B annually. So I guess I need to go

[00:06:06] back and correct. This is the 90s. Yeah, yeah, this is recent.

[00:06:10] Very recent. Yeah. So Barry and Honey went on to have four

[00:06:15] children, a son and three daughters. And as the Jewish son

[00:06:19] of parents on both sides that escaped from the Nazis during

[00:06:22] World War II, Barry and Honey both were very active in the

[00:06:26] Jewish community in Toronto, giving to many charities

[00:06:29] throughout their lives, particularly as you might expect

[00:06:32] Jewish causes and health care and medical interest. The

[00:06:36] University of Toronto said they gave over $12 million for

[00:06:40] medicine and pharmacy education and research at the school. By

[00:06:45] all accounts, Barry was really business focused. You know, he

[00:06:49] would travel with his families on vacation, but he would

[00:06:52] stay in and work while they, you know, skied or went on

[00:06:54] excursions. And Honey took care of the children and was

[00:06:57] influential in the Toronto Charity Circuit. By 1989 years

[00:07:02] after they were married, they built their dream home at 50

[00:07:05] Old Colony Road just north of Toronto. Old Colony Road sits

[00:07:10] right next to Brindle path, one of Canada and Toronto's

[00:07:13] richest neighborhoods filled with large mentions set back

[00:07:17] from the road. Now I have to stop right here and ask you

[00:07:20] guys and I want our listeners to think too, when you think

[00:07:23] of 1980s architecture, what comes to mind? I mean, let's be

[00:07:27] clear that the 80s were not a decade of good design. They

[00:07:30] really weren't. When I picture a house in the 80s, I see one

[00:07:32] of two styles either it's a lot of what I would call cubism,

[00:07:36] although I'm not sure that's the accurate description with

[00:07:38] bright colors and linear designs with a lot of glass blocks

[00:07:41] for windows and dividers. Or I see a lot of pastels with

[00:07:44] lace curtains and oak entertainment centers. Yeah,

[00:07:47] two very different aesthetic rights, neither which were

[00:07:50] great. Yeah, my

[00:07:52] really seems to carry over to today. Like you know, where you

[00:07:56] see mid century modern, you can even see like some 70s style

[00:08:00] like being popular today. 80s style has not had the at least

[00:08:04] the architectural comeback.

[00:08:06] Yeah. But the 90s are a really bad design choice and I'm

[00:08:10] wondering if one day we'll be like, Oh, the 2020s were a

[00:08:14] terrible design choice. I don't know the 1990s style

[00:08:17] like clothes are really popular right now. All those pants

[00:08:20] and jeans. True. I like that though.

[00:08:26] Well, we definitely had a few oak entertainment centers in my

[00:08:29] house growing up. But I would say that the house Berry and

[00:08:32] Honeybill fits more into that first category, definitely a

[00:08:35] little more modern. Okay. The house was a beast at 12,000

[00:08:40] square feet with five bedrooms and nine bathrooms and a

[00:08:44] full basement floor that included an indoor pool and an

[00:08:48] underground 10 car garage with a heated ramp, which I guess

[00:08:53] Toronto it's going to be cold, right? So that makes some

[00:08:55] sense. Yeah, I was trying to picture that and I'm like, Oh,

[00:08:58] like so that like if you're like coming up in the snow and

[00:09:01] you would, you know, you would, you know, if it's

[00:09:03] coming at an incline to go on a hill, you need to be

[00:09:06] able to drive up. Okay, so at the time and online real

[00:09:09] estate listing described it as and I don't know why

[00:09:11] there would have been an online maybe it was just like

[00:09:13] an article talking about the house because they built it

[00:09:15] custom. But anyway, it was described as an architectural

[00:09:19] modern masterpiece of poured concrete and steel

[00:09:23] construction. Outside there was also a pool and a tennis

[00:09:26] court and inside the huge main floor and second floor

[00:09:30] were lit up by a skylight in the center of the home.

[00:09:32] Oh, skylights. We forgot about that with 80s

[00:09:34] architecture. Oh yes, that was big. Yeah. Yeah. I

[00:09:39] was always kind of jealous because you know, a lot of

[00:09:41] homes in my neighborhood growing up or 80s, you know,

[00:09:44] they were built in the 80s and that a lot of them had

[00:09:47] skylights and I just thought that seemed very

[00:09:49] sophisticated. All right. Well, despite their huge

[00:09:54] home with skylights, the Shermans never had

[00:09:56] surveillance cameras and a bit of foreshadowing Barry

[00:09:59] told friends if they're going to get you, they're

[00:10:02] going to get you. Okay. Yeah. Now according to

[00:10:06] the reports, the house cost the Shermans $2.3

[00:10:10] million to build in 1980, but they ended up suing

[00:10:13] their contractor for breach of contract and poor

[00:10:16] workmanship. And in the end, the builder refunded 90%

[00:10:20] of what they paid. Dang. Yeah. I read that in

[00:10:23] general, Barry was quite litigious in all aspects

[00:10:26] of his life. Yeah. Well, we'll talk about some

[00:10:30] later lawsuits for sure. But I think you're

[00:10:33] spot on on that, Mel. Now by 2017 when they

[00:10:36] put the house on the market again, it was

[00:10:39] priced at $6.9 million. And that takes us to

[00:10:43] the current timeline of our story. By 2017, Barry

[00:10:47] and Honey had decided to sell their home at 50

[00:10:49] old Colony Road and they were in the process of

[00:10:51] building another home in order to be closer to

[00:10:53] their grandkids. I love that. Can I just say I

[00:10:56] love grandparents who want to move close to

[00:10:57] the grandkids? They're some of my favorite

[00:10:59] clients. Oh, yeah. I mean, I would say like

[00:11:02] next to first time home buyers who are so

[00:11:04] excited about their first home together. It's

[00:11:05] the best. Grandparents were actually the

[00:11:08] first clients who I ever had by a house site

[00:11:11] unseen. I think we talked about that on a

[00:11:13] recent episode, but my house came on the

[00:11:15] market two doors down from their grandkids

[00:11:17] and they called me and they were like,

[00:11:19] unless it's falling down, like just buy it.

[00:11:21] Like put the offer in right now. I don't

[00:11:23] care what it looks like. We can fix anything.

[00:11:25] I love that. Yeah. So. But also scares

[00:11:27] me. I would never buy a house site

[00:11:29] unseen. No. Yeah. No. And I'd love for

[00:11:32] my parents to live closer. Maybe not

[00:11:34] two doors down. Right. Closer. My brother

[00:11:37] did call me a few years back and at the

[00:11:39] time him and his family were living in

[00:11:41] Australia and knew they were like coming

[00:11:44] back to the States. And so they found a

[00:11:45] house they really liked and I told them

[00:11:47] I was like, you guys are crazy. Do not

[00:11:49] buy this site unseen. You have plenty of

[00:11:51] time just wait till you get back. But

[00:11:54] they had somebody that knew them

[00:11:55] really well go and look at the house

[00:11:57] and he was like great house. You're

[00:11:59] going to hate this wine fridge. It's

[00:12:00] too small but everything else is

[00:12:01] perfect. And sure enough, the wine

[00:12:03] fridge was awful but they loved the

[00:12:05] house. Oh, it's great. Okay. So let's

[00:12:07] work out sometimes. Yes. But I digress.

[00:12:09] Sometimes I have a habit of doing.

[00:12:11] Sorry guys. Back to the Sherman family.

[00:12:14] Now we don't know a lot about the

[00:12:16] house they were building to be closer to

[00:12:18] those grand babies. But we do know that

[00:12:20] their realtor was working really hard

[00:12:22] to get their current home sold for them.

[00:12:25] They had actually received a couple of

[00:12:26] lowball offers but Barry was pushing

[00:12:28] for a higher price. And I mean I

[00:12:30] get that everyone wants to get top

[00:12:31] dollar for their house. Well they

[00:12:34] also had already just made a huge

[00:12:36] profit on this house. You know,

[00:12:39] 500,000 to now try and sell it for

[00:12:41] almost 7 million. Yeah, for sure.

[00:12:44] Absolutely. But you know I think

[00:12:46] I think as we've sort of hinted to

[00:12:48] and as we'll talk about later, Barry

[00:12:50] was pretty tough negotiator. I don't

[00:12:52] think he was going to leave any money

[00:12:53] on the table. So in this

[00:12:56] effort to like help her promote

[00:12:58] the value of the house, Barry

[00:13:00] told his agent that he would go

[00:13:01] through an inspection report on the

[00:13:03] house and mark it up and you know add

[00:13:05] some additional details that he

[00:13:07] thought would add to the value and

[00:13:09] for her to be able to market it.

[00:13:10] That I love that. And that's a

[00:13:12] real estate side note. It's always

[00:13:13] a good idea whether you're selling

[00:13:14] a 6.9 million dollar house or

[00:13:16] $150,000 house. You know your

[00:13:19] home better than anyone else. And if

[00:13:20] you know anything about it that the

[00:13:22] real estate agent might want to

[00:13:23] point out or add to the listing.

[00:13:25] You should add that. And Heather,

[00:13:26] I feel like your husband needs to

[00:13:27] add some value to your house for

[00:13:29] that amazing sound system he

[00:13:30] installed.

[00:13:32] Yeah, I mean you're right like stuff

[00:13:33] like that. Yeah.

[00:13:35] Yeah, he is pretty proud of his

[00:13:36] sound system. I will say it makes

[00:13:37] watching 2020 or Dateline while

[00:13:39] I'm cooking so nice because I can

[00:13:41] hear it in the kitchen. I don't

[00:13:42] have to have it like blaring for

[00:13:44] another room.

[00:13:46] Now back to the Sherman house

[00:13:47] though, you know it's pretty

[00:13:48] standard and high end properties

[00:13:50] for showing to be what we call

[00:13:52] in Dallas agent to meet, which

[00:13:54] means exactly what it says

[00:13:56] the listing agent is going to

[00:13:57] meet all potential buyers and

[00:13:59] their real estate agent at the

[00:14:00] house for a showing.

[00:14:01] Yeah, that's definitely a price

[00:14:02] point distinction. Most properties

[00:14:04] at an average buyer would look at

[00:14:06] can be shown by the buyer's

[00:14:07] realtor through some sort of lock

[00:14:08] box on the property. But it makes

[00:14:09] sense that this home and homes

[00:14:12] that are of that caliber or

[00:14:13] price point would want the agent

[00:14:15] to be there. Yeah, absolutely. I

[00:14:17] mean, there's the security issue.

[00:14:19] There's the number of very

[00:14:20] expensive things that can just

[00:14:22] walk away. Right.

[00:14:23] You know, there are all sorts of

[00:14:24] reasons.

[00:14:25] So on this six point nine million

[00:14:27] dollar house, the listing agent

[00:14:28] was meeting the showing on

[00:14:29] Friday, December 17th,

[00:14:31] 2017.

[00:14:33] A buyer from out of the country

[00:14:34] had reached out to see the house

[00:14:35] along with their agent.

[00:14:37] And the listing agent thought it

[00:14:38] was really odd that she couldn't

[00:14:40] reach Barry or honey on the phone

[00:14:41] to confirm the appointment.

[00:14:43] She even went so far as to call

[00:14:44] Barry's assistant who hadn't heard

[00:14:46] from him that morning.

[00:14:47] In fact, all of Apatex was

[00:14:49] sort of surprised that they hadn't

[00:14:51] heard from Barry that morning.

[00:14:52] He was a known workaholic

[00:14:54] who had often sent emails

[00:14:55] well into the night or early

[00:14:57] in the morning like us.

[00:14:58] Oh, of course.

[00:14:59] Sure.

[00:15:00] Now, not wanting to miss out on a

[00:15:02] showing, their realtor decides to

[00:15:04] go by the house and see if she can

[00:15:05] show it anyway.

[00:15:06] She arrives to find the housekeeper

[00:15:08] and a few other household employees

[00:15:09] there thinking like the personal

[00:15:11] trainer or the florist or the

[00:15:12] handyman.

[00:15:14] That's next level.

[00:15:15] Yeah. I mean, this is like a

[00:15:17] full blown estate essentially

[00:15:19] sounds like with help.

[00:15:24] And at this time, you know,

[00:15:25] Barry was one of the 15 wealthiest

[00:15:27] men in Canada.

[00:15:29] Though according to his friends,

[00:15:30] he was very frugal, driving cars

[00:15:32] until they would collapse and not

[00:15:33] being particularly showy with his

[00:15:35] wealth.

[00:15:36] But anyway, the agent shows up

[00:15:38] around 10 a.m. that morning and

[00:15:39] she knocks on the door and the

[00:15:40] housekeeper answers and says

[00:15:42] that the Shermans aren't home,

[00:15:44] but you know, come on in and

[00:15:45] show the house.

[00:15:46] So the agent asked the help

[00:15:47] keeper to help her get all the

[00:15:48] lights on and sort of prep

[00:15:50] it for the showing.

[00:15:52] Now, I want to go back.

[00:15:54] I'm pulling up a picture right

[00:15:56] now of the floor plan

[00:15:58] of this house.

[00:16:00] It is incredible.

[00:16:02] Of course, we're going to post a

[00:16:03] floor plan of the house on our

[00:16:05] website and on our socials.

[00:16:07] But so go look at that if you

[00:16:08] want to. But for the time being

[00:16:10] imagine they start on the first

[00:16:11] floor, you know, she's walked in

[00:16:12] the door. They're getting this

[00:16:13] house ready.

[00:16:15] And they're here in this

[00:16:15] formal entryway and just off to

[00:16:17] the left of that is a powder

[00:16:19] bath.

[00:16:20] So when the realtor shows

[00:16:21] that room to the potential

[00:16:23] buyers, she notices that a

[00:16:25] cell phone is sitting on the

[00:16:27] vanity.

[00:16:28] Now I don't want to put words in

[00:16:29] her mouth. I don't know exactly

[00:16:30] what she was thinking at the

[00:16:31] time. But I would have been a

[00:16:32] little annoyed that my clients

[00:16:34] one weren't answering my phone

[00:16:35] calls and two did not have the

[00:16:36] house 100 percent show ready.

[00:16:39] But regardless, she proceeds

[00:16:41] with the showing leaving the

[00:16:42] phone where she found it.

[00:16:44] They continue their tour and

[00:16:46] for the most part, you know,

[00:16:47] they don't find anything else

[00:16:48] unusual in the main sections of

[00:16:50] the house.

[00:16:51] However, when they move to

[00:16:52] the basement level that changes.

[00:16:55] Now, the basement level is

[00:16:57] interesting. It includes that 10

[00:16:59] car garage that we talked about,

[00:17:00] a rec room, a guest bedroom,

[00:17:03] a sauna, a gym

[00:17:05] and an indoor pool.

[00:17:07] Interestingly enough, Canada

[00:17:09] requires all homes with an

[00:17:10] indoor pool to have a door with

[00:17:12] a locking mechanism, which, you

[00:17:14] know, totally makes sense, but

[00:17:15] it just isn't something I've

[00:17:16] thought about. Right.

[00:17:17] Yes. Same. I mean, we have to

[00:17:18] have like a locking gate and a

[00:17:20] gate that auto shuts if you

[00:17:21] have a pool here in Texas.

[00:17:23] So I mean, I can see.

[00:17:24] Yeah. A friend of mine, when she

[00:17:25] was building a home in the last

[00:17:27] few years here in the Dallas area,

[00:17:29] they even had issues with the

[00:17:31] fence because the fence that

[00:17:32] they were building apparently

[00:17:35] like kind of was horizontal boards

[00:17:37] instead of vertical boards.

[00:17:39] And they were having issues

[00:17:40] because the idea was that maybe

[00:17:41] somebody could use it to climb

[00:17:43] over.

[00:17:45] Like a ladder to like, I just

[00:17:47] thought it looked nicer.

[00:17:49] They are interesting that way.

[00:17:51] Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:17:55] You know, and in the Sunbelt

[00:17:56] here in Texas, we really don't

[00:17:58] have a lot of homes with indoor

[00:17:59] pools. You can pretty much swim

[00:18:00] outdoors here around, especially

[00:18:02] if you have a pool heater.

[00:18:03] But I get that in Toronto, indoor

[00:18:05] pools are probably makes pretty

[00:18:06] popular yet and a luxury item

[00:18:08] for high end homes.

[00:18:11] So before they reach the pool,

[00:18:12] they walk through this rec room

[00:18:14] and the rec room is known to

[00:18:15] have these really odd

[00:18:18] statues, I guess is the right

[00:18:20] word in them.

[00:18:21] Yeah, I'm not sure the exact

[00:18:24] delineation between statue and

[00:18:25] sculpture, but yeah, let's

[00:18:27] call it a statue.

[00:18:30] So these set on

[00:18:33] these 1980 speakers.

[00:18:34] So imagine speakers that like

[00:18:35] come up to your waist and these

[00:18:38] are human life sized

[00:18:41] statues.

[00:18:43] Figurites. Figurites.

[00:18:44] Yes, these are color and we'll

[00:18:46] post a picture because it's

[00:18:48] hard to imagine, but these are

[00:18:50] colorful, almost robotic

[00:18:52] looking to me like a picture

[00:18:54] of human beings.

[00:18:57] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:58] They're waist size speakers and

[00:18:59] then a human size statue on top.

[00:19:02] Am I understand? Yes.

[00:19:02] Yeah. The humans are sitting.

[00:19:04] So it's like they're sitting on

[00:19:05] the top of the speakers, but

[00:19:06] they would be normal person

[00:19:08] size.

[00:19:09] And they're sort of posed in

[00:19:11] like this odd pose.

[00:19:13] And apparently everybody in the

[00:19:14] family hated these except for

[00:19:16] Honey Sherman who loved them.

[00:19:17] So like you do with most

[00:19:19] things when only one person in

[00:19:20] your home loves them.

[00:19:21] They ended up in the rec room

[00:19:22] far away from like the main

[00:19:24] living area.

[00:19:25] Yeah. One of them looked like a

[00:19:26] man and one of them looked like

[00:19:28] a woman and they were made out

[00:19:30] of like recycled junk.

[00:19:32] These were by an acclaimed

[00:19:33] sculptor Leo Sewell.

[00:19:35] And they had been it was a

[00:19:36] gift that had been given to

[00:19:38] the family.

[00:19:40] Have you all ever had a client

[00:19:42] with like a very specific

[00:19:43] taste in an item that you're

[00:19:45] like, we probably need to remove

[00:19:47] that before we show the house?

[00:19:49] No.

[00:19:51] The only thing I really recommend

[00:19:52] them removing are pictures of

[00:19:54] their kids and religious

[00:19:57] things just because that it

[00:19:59] might not be for everyone.

[00:20:01] But no, I never had anyone like

[00:20:02] that.

[00:20:03] I have had a couple clients

[00:20:04] that maybe were

[00:20:06] big hunters or like game

[00:20:08] hunters.

[00:20:09] And I mean, it's Texas.

[00:20:10] So you get a little bit of a

[00:20:12] pass, but there's only so many

[00:20:13] you can have in one room.

[00:20:15] Yes. I went into show a house

[00:20:18] in East Texas somewhere and they

[00:20:19] were everywhere.

[00:20:20] And I was like, I don't I don't

[00:20:22] like it. They didn't like it.

[00:20:23] And I didn't like it.

[00:20:23] Like it's a lot.

[00:20:24] It's excessive.

[00:20:26] So I sort of expect that the

[00:20:28] realtor would have preferred these

[00:20:29] statues been moved because they

[00:20:30] were a little creepy.

[00:20:32] But you know, moving beyond the

[00:20:33] statues, the realtor

[00:20:36] finds this stack of papers

[00:20:38] on the floor and that sort of

[00:20:39] looks like the inspection report

[00:20:41] that Barry had promised to bring

[00:20:42] home.

[00:20:43] And it's just sort of lying

[00:20:44] in the entryway off of the

[00:20:45] garage along with Barry's gloves.

[00:20:49] And then last but not least, she

[00:20:50] finds a sliding window in the

[00:20:51] guest bedroom in the basement,

[00:20:53] which had recently been painted

[00:20:55] open about six inches.

[00:20:57] So remember, we're in Ontario in

[00:20:59] December, so leaving windows open

[00:21:01] is not really the norm, even if

[00:21:02] you're airing out some paint

[00:21:04] fumes.

[00:21:04] So it would not have been left

[00:21:06] open for very long, presumably.

[00:21:09] And again, not putting words

[00:21:10] into this realtor's mouth, but

[00:21:11] I'm just imagining how I

[00:21:13] would feel in this situation.

[00:21:14] I would still be like I'd be

[00:21:16] super annoyed that I am

[00:21:18] busting my ass to sell this house

[00:21:20] for you. And you've just got like

[00:21:21] stuff laying in the hallway.

[00:21:24] Melanie said off camera that I was

[00:21:25] never allowed to sell her house

[00:21:27] because I have too high standards.

[00:21:28] But no, I mean, this is why you

[00:21:30] are so wonderful.

[00:21:32] You're so great about it.

[00:21:33] I just it makes me realize

[00:21:35] I'm like what a pigsty like

[00:21:37] even without thinking it's a pigsty.

[00:21:39] I'm like, oh, you know, the shoes

[00:21:40] that are obviously if I was

[00:21:41] selling my house, I would pick

[00:21:43] things up more.

[00:21:44] But I think the only way that

[00:21:46] a realistic person who has multiple

[00:21:48] kids and low

[00:21:50] storage can do it is to get a storage

[00:21:52] unit. Like I mean, that's what I

[00:21:54] imagine I would have to do is just

[00:21:57] like completely declutter

[00:22:00] just the stuff of life, you know,

[00:22:02] the golf clubs that are, you know,

[00:22:04] sitting around because they

[00:22:06] they're going in and out of the

[00:22:07] house store all the time.

[00:22:08] Like I feel like I would need a

[00:22:09] storage unit for a lot of like

[00:22:11] all the winter stuff.

[00:22:13] Well, and it's being

[00:22:15] really common now for sellers

[00:22:17] to get a bridge loan for their

[00:22:18] purchase.

[00:22:19] You know, if they can qualify for

[00:22:20] both houses, they'll get a loan

[00:22:22] that allows them to go ahead and

[00:22:24] put a down payment on the new

[00:22:25] house based on the expected

[00:22:27] proceeds from the sale of the old

[00:22:29] house.

[00:22:30] And so they'll just move out first

[00:22:32] and that is ideal.

[00:22:34] Yeah, that would that would be

[00:22:36] ideal. But you're right

[00:22:38] because that's what I swear.

[00:22:40] That's one of the things that have

[00:22:41] put me off on looking at a new

[00:22:43] home is the work

[00:22:45] that would need to be done to just

[00:22:47] even get to that point is

[00:22:49] intimidating. And I bet it's

[00:22:50] intimidating to a lot of people.

[00:22:51] Yeah.

[00:22:52] Well, this realtor kept put her

[00:22:54] game face on and she kept it on

[00:22:56] and she just continues with the

[00:22:57] showing despite all these little

[00:22:59] oddities that she's finding.

[00:23:01] And when she opens the door to

[00:23:02] the gym, which connects to the

[00:23:04] pool, she finds it odd

[00:23:07] that she can tell that the pool

[00:23:09] light is on lighting up the

[00:23:10] water.

[00:23:12] But the pool cover is also on

[00:23:14] giving the pool and the whole

[00:23:15] area like this really eerie

[00:23:17] glow.

[00:23:18] So she glances down to the end of

[00:23:20] the pool area and sees something

[00:23:21] unusual that she can't quite

[00:23:23] make out.

[00:23:24] Now, this is a 45 foot long

[00:23:26] room with the pool taking up

[00:23:28] most of it. So I mean, this is

[00:23:29] a big room.

[00:23:30] She's glancing down.

[00:23:32] According to reports, the other

[00:23:34] agent looks over sees the same

[00:23:35] thing and says, Oh, what?

[00:23:37] Is that more odd art?

[00:23:40] Now, have you ever had one of

[00:23:41] those moments when things that

[00:23:43] shouldn't click just sort of fall

[00:23:44] into place in your brain?

[00:23:48] That shouldn't click.

[00:23:49] Yeah, you're like, this is

[00:23:50] unusual.

[00:23:51] And then all of a sudden you're

[00:23:52] just like, oh, yes, yes, you

[00:23:54] don't understand what you're

[00:23:55] looking at.

[00:23:56] And then all of a sudden it

[00:23:58] kind of looks like your brain

[00:23:59] reshuffles it for you and

[00:24:00] processes it without you

[00:24:01] thinking about it.

[00:24:02] That's exactly what happened here.

[00:24:04] Realizing that whatever she was

[00:24:06] seen was not good, the agent

[00:24:08] kept her composure, showed the

[00:24:09] buyers out of the house and then

[00:24:11] asked the housekeeper to go back

[00:24:13] downstairs and check on the

[00:24:15] Shermans.

[00:24:16] When it the housekeeper came back

[00:24:18] upstairs, it was clear that

[00:24:20] both Shermans were dead.

[00:24:21] Yikes. I feel like this real

[00:24:23] trick kind of knew what was going

[00:24:24] on. She's like, I'm not going

[00:24:25] back down there.

[00:24:27] Yeah.

[00:24:28] Now, when the police arrived, they

[00:24:30] determined that Barry and Honey had

[00:24:32] been dead for more than a day,

[00:24:34] having been killed two evenings

[00:24:36] prior.

[00:24:38] Even more strange, the two were

[00:24:40] posed to look like the statues in

[00:24:42] the rec room with Barry's legs

[00:24:44] crossed in a semi seated position

[00:24:46] and with belts fastened around

[00:24:48] their necks and tied to a low

[00:24:50] railing by the indoor swimming

[00:24:51] pool. What?

[00:24:52] Isn't that creepy? That's super

[00:24:53] creepy.

[00:24:55] All right, so definitely you all

[00:24:57] go and look at the floorplans

[00:24:58] on our website, crimestate.com

[00:25:00] or on our Instagram page at

[00:25:01] Crime State Podcast so that you

[00:25:03] can follow me as I walk you

[00:25:05] through what the family thinks

[00:25:07] happened.

[00:25:08] Honey always parks her car to

[00:25:10] the right of the house near

[00:25:11] the side door, entering

[00:25:13] and exiting that way.

[00:25:15] So from that entrance, she's

[00:25:17] actually very close to that

[00:25:18] powder bath on the first floor

[00:25:20] where the phone was exactly

[00:25:21] where the phone was.

[00:25:23] So the family thinks that she

[00:25:24] came in the side door like

[00:25:25] normal, found an intruder

[00:25:27] already in the home

[00:25:29] and ran to the powder bath

[00:25:31] to like shut and lock the door

[00:25:32] to call for help.

[00:25:34] So that's why her phone was

[00:25:35] later found there.

[00:25:37] And injuries to Honey's head and

[00:25:38] body match what her family

[00:25:40] thinks occurred while she was

[00:25:41] being dragged from the powder

[00:25:43] bath down the back spiral

[00:25:45] stairs and into the pool area.

[00:25:48] Now, Barry on the other hand

[00:25:50] typically parks in the garage

[00:25:52] and remember the realtor found

[00:25:53] paperwork that he was supposed

[00:25:55] to be bringing home to her

[00:25:57] along with his gloves in an

[00:25:58] entryway just off of the garage.

[00:26:00] So the family thinks that Barry

[00:26:02] was assaulted as he walked

[00:26:03] into the door as well.

[00:26:06] However, the police are very

[00:26:08] quick to dismiss an intruder

[00:26:09] theory telling the public that

[00:26:11] there are no signs of forced

[00:26:12] entry and that there is no

[00:26:14] search for a suspect at this

[00:26:16] time.

[00:26:17] Meaning they obviously think

[00:26:18] this is a murder, suicide.

[00:26:19] Exactly. And as you might

[00:26:21] imagine their kids were

[00:26:22] horrified by this

[00:26:24] and they issued a statement

[00:26:25] which read quote.

[00:26:27] We are shocked and think it's

[00:26:29] irresponsible that police

[00:26:30] sources have reportedly advised

[00:26:32] the media of a theory

[00:26:34] which neither the family

[00:26:35] their friends nor their

[00:26:37] colleagues believe to be true.

[00:26:38] End quote.

[00:26:40] And in an interview for the no

[00:26:42] good, terribly kind

[00:26:43] podcast, Mark Mendelsen,

[00:26:45] a former homicide detective

[00:26:46] with the Toronto police said,

[00:26:48] I'm quite sure that if officers

[00:26:50] could walk those words back,

[00:26:51] I think they would because

[00:26:53] that set the tone for everything

[00:26:55] that flowed from that point on.

[00:26:57] According to Mendelsen, there

[00:26:58] was no rush to make a

[00:26:59] determination.

[00:27:00] I feel like that happens often

[00:27:02] like they don't want the public

[00:27:03] to get all like paranoid

[00:27:05] and crazy and stuff.

[00:27:06] So they may issue statements

[00:27:08] like that before.

[00:27:09] Yeah, they should.

[00:27:10] Yeah, especially in these high

[00:27:11] profile areas.

[00:27:12] Yeah.

[00:27:14] You know, in this initial police

[00:27:16] statement and the overall lack

[00:27:17] of an investigation caused

[00:27:19] the Sherman children to hire

[00:27:20] their own investigator who found

[00:27:22] that the police did not thoroughly

[00:27:24] inspect the crime scene for DNA

[00:27:26] or finger and palm prints,

[00:27:28] nor did they inspect all

[00:27:30] of the entry and exit locations

[00:27:31] throughout the house.

[00:27:33] Six weeks after the Sherman's

[00:27:35] death and upon reviewing the

[00:27:36] evidence from the private

[00:27:37] detective, the kids had hired.

[00:27:40] The Ontario police announced

[00:27:41] that they now believed that

[00:27:43] the Sherman family had been

[00:27:44] targeted and that they were

[00:27:46] looking for a murderer.

[00:27:48] So who would have a motive

[00:27:51] to kill Barry and Honey Sherman?

[00:27:53] As it turns out, quite a few

[00:27:54] people, most of which are family.

[00:27:57] What? Well, it seems like

[00:27:59] everything we learn until now,

[00:28:00] they had a great family life.

[00:28:01] They were going to be closer

[00:28:02] to their grandkids.

[00:28:03] Yeah, I mean, you're right.

[00:28:04] Or at least partially right.

[00:28:06] You know, remember that Barry

[00:28:07] purchased his uncle's pharmaceutical

[00:28:09] company back before he married Honey?

[00:28:12] We talked about that at the very

[00:28:13] beginning of the episode.

[00:28:15] And that original purchase

[00:28:16] agreement stated that the purchase

[00:28:18] was only valid if he gave

[00:28:20] his cousins, that would have been

[00:28:21] his uncle's children, a 20

[00:28:24] percent share in the company

[00:28:25] at the time they turned 21.

[00:28:27] Yeah, because these

[00:28:29] his uncle died pretty young

[00:28:31] and his children, his children,

[00:28:34] the cousins were minors.

[00:28:36] Gotcha. At the time.

[00:28:37] Yeah, and however, though,

[00:28:39] this clause was going to be null

[00:28:41] and void if Barry sold the company

[00:28:44] prior to them reaching that age.

[00:28:47] So he sold the company only two

[00:28:48] years after purchasing it to start

[00:28:50] Apotex. But when his adult cousins

[00:28:53] found out about this clause,

[00:28:54] they felt pretty cheated and they

[00:28:56] sued Barry for their portion

[00:28:58] of his current company.

[00:29:01] This suit went on for years

[00:29:02] before eventually ending up in

[00:29:04] Canada's Supreme Court, where it

[00:29:06] was thrown out only three months

[00:29:08] before Barry and Honey ended up

[00:29:10] dead in their home.

[00:29:11] The judge who threw it out called

[00:29:12] the claim wishful thinking and

[00:29:14] beyond fanciful and to add

[00:29:16] insult injury required that the

[00:29:18] cousin bringing the suit pay for

[00:29:19] the Sherman's legal fees.

[00:29:21] Your mouth just dropped open.

[00:29:22] Stop. Yeah.

[00:29:24] Now on top of that, Barry had

[00:29:26] actually been really generous to

[00:29:27] his cousins over the years,

[00:29:30] quote unquote, loaning them

[00:29:31] money for business ventures and

[00:29:32] other purchases.

[00:29:34] So when the suit was settled,

[00:29:36] Barry called in all of these

[00:29:38] loans to the tune of eight

[00:29:39] million dollars and the cousin

[00:29:41] had to sell his house and other

[00:29:43] properties in order to pay off

[00:29:44] the loans.

[00:29:45] I mean, that's a motive for

[00:29:47] killing someone.

[00:29:48] Yeah. I think he was vindictive

[00:29:49] for sure.

[00:29:50] Hey, you're going to put me

[00:29:51] through all of this.

[00:29:53] Now I'm no longer nice to you.

[00:29:54] Right.

[00:29:55] I don't want to be projecting

[00:29:56] too much, especially on a victim.

[00:29:59] But I mean,

[00:30:00] he definitely seemed to have some

[00:30:02] social tendencies.

[00:30:05] He definitely thought he was the

[00:30:06] smartest man in the room and

[00:30:07] he obviously was very, very smart,

[00:30:10] but maybe not as much social

[00:30:13] skills as well.

[00:30:15] It does sound odd like when

[00:30:17] you're describing Heather,

[00:30:19] your friend who worked on the

[00:30:21] same floor as him and had never

[00:30:23] like, you know, interacted,

[00:30:24] you know, beyond like one

[00:30:26] time. I mean, I've been on

[00:30:29] the C level floor of

[00:30:31] my company's chief executives,

[00:30:33] you know, a decent bit.

[00:30:34] And I would say in general,

[00:30:36] people smile, say hi, make a little

[00:30:38] small talk.

[00:30:39] It would be weird for someone to

[00:30:40] at least not make a little bit of

[00:30:41] small talk of somebody that you

[00:30:43] recognize, even if you don't

[00:30:44] know. Yeah.

[00:30:45] Even if it's just like, hey,

[00:30:46] have a great weekend.

[00:30:47] As you're walking out the door.

[00:30:48] Just kind of a little bit.

[00:30:50] Yeah.

[00:30:51] So in an interview with CBC's

[00:30:53] the Fifth Estate, the cousin

[00:30:54] Kerry says he wasn't this

[00:30:57] loving, kind person giving

[00:30:58] money away, this pillar of the

[00:31:00] Jewish community.

[00:31:01] He cared about one thing, money,

[00:31:03] making lots of it and not caring

[00:31:05] who he destroyed, who he stepped

[00:31:07] on or who he effed over, like me

[00:31:08] and my brothers.

[00:31:10] And in an example of things you

[00:31:11] should never say on TV,

[00:31:13] he went on to talk about actually

[00:31:14] wanting to kill Barry Sherman.

[00:31:16] Shit, that should not say that.

[00:31:18] No, no.

[00:31:20] He says the way I was going to

[00:31:22] do it wouldn't have been with

[00:31:22] belts. It was going to be in the

[00:31:24] Apatex parking lot.

[00:31:26] That was my vision always that

[00:31:27] he'd come out of the building at

[00:31:28] Apatex and I'd be hiding behind a

[00:31:30] car and I would just decapitate

[00:31:31] him.

[00:31:33] I wanted to roll his head down the

[00:31:34] parking lot and I'd just sit there

[00:31:36] waiting for the police.

[00:31:37] Dang.

[00:31:39] I mean, do you think that's like

[00:31:40] the best response

[00:31:43] though is like, no, I didn't do it.

[00:31:45] If I was going to do it, I would

[00:31:46] have done it differently.

[00:31:47] I would have never done it like

[00:31:48] that. I'd already had it planned

[00:31:49] out.

[00:31:50] That's crazy.

[00:31:53] Despite this statement, Elena, he

[00:31:54] says that he had nothing to do

[00:31:56] with their murders and that the

[00:31:57] police did tell him that he was

[00:31:59] not a suspect.

[00:32:01] Now, in the spirit of calling in

[00:32:03] loans, Barry had also recently

[00:32:05] called in a pretty significant

[00:32:06] loan to his son Jonathan and

[00:32:08] Jonathan's business partner.

[00:32:10] It seems that in the summer of

[00:32:11] 2017, only months before

[00:32:13] his death, Barry had lost

[00:32:15] a drug patent case and

[00:32:17] Apatex was going to have to pay

[00:32:19] $580 million

[00:32:21] dollars to a rival company

[00:32:23] by January of 2018.

[00:32:26] In an email that Jonathan wrote to

[00:32:28] Keith Donovan at the Toronto Star,

[00:32:29] who by the way is the go to

[00:32:31] source for this case.

[00:32:32] If you're fascinated and want to

[00:32:33] look up more on it, he said,

[00:32:35] in short, my father was always

[00:32:37] very supportive of me and my

[00:32:38] businesses, including throughout

[00:32:40] 2017.

[00:32:41] He did have his moments where he

[00:32:42] had more available cash for

[00:32:43] investing and sometimes less.

[00:32:45] And we had mature conversations

[00:32:47] about this.

[00:32:48] This is what billionaires do with

[00:32:49] their sons.

[00:32:51] I have not had that conversation

[00:32:53] with my family.

[00:32:55] So Barry had asked Jonathan and

[00:32:57] Jonathan's business partner to go

[00:32:58] ahead and secure mortgages on

[00:33:00] 50 to 60 million dollars worth

[00:33:02] of properties that he had

[00:33:04] purchased for them in order

[00:33:06] to help with Apatex's cash flow

[00:33:08] problem. So Barry had given

[00:33:09] them cash to purchase properties

[00:33:11] and he was like, hey, now I

[00:33:12] need that cash back.

[00:33:14] You guys go get a mortgage on

[00:33:15] this so I can, you know, get

[00:33:17] a little more cash in my pocket.

[00:33:20] Other conspiracy theories have

[00:33:22] been thrown out related to the

[00:33:23] family business and theories

[00:33:25] have ranged from, you know, Big

[00:33:26] Pharma coming after the Shermans

[00:33:28] related to all of their lawsuits

[00:33:30] or competition in the generic

[00:33:31] drug wars.

[00:33:32] I mean, the theories are

[00:33:34] all over the place.

[00:33:36] And I think there there's

[00:33:38] lots of theories because there

[00:33:39] is no like overwhelming

[00:33:41] evidence for any of them.

[00:33:42] Yeah. Well, and to date police

[00:33:44] have not arrested anyone for

[00:33:45] the murders of Barry and Honey

[00:33:47] Sherman.

[00:33:48] The Toronto Police has said

[00:33:49] there are people of interest,

[00:33:50] but nothing else has come of,

[00:33:51] you know, the murders of

[00:33:52] Canada's richest family.

[00:33:53] Wow.

[00:33:55] Yeah, I mean, it really boggles

[00:33:57] my mind, but it does sound like

[00:33:59] a bad investigation job.

[00:34:00] And, you know, I'm going to give

[00:34:02] you a second while you start

[00:34:03] thinking about it because I'd

[00:34:04] like to think of your opinions,

[00:34:06] you know, not that we really

[00:34:08] know of who we think, you

[00:34:09] know, what do we think

[00:34:10] happened?

[00:34:11] Because, you know, ever since

[00:34:13] I was starting to research this,

[00:34:14] you know, when I've been

[00:34:15] driving, I've been trying to

[00:34:16] think about it because this is

[00:34:17] 2017.

[00:34:18] And so this is modern.

[00:34:20] You I mean, it's weird that

[00:34:21] they didn't have any security

[00:34:22] cameras, but maybe that their

[00:34:24] neighbours would have security

[00:34:26] cameras on the streets.

[00:34:28] You know, this is one of the

[00:34:30] richest families in Canada.

[00:34:32] And if the police

[00:34:34] is kind of botching up this

[00:34:35] job, how the hell are they

[00:34:37] going to do one of our, you

[00:34:38] know, like if something

[00:34:40] that small or more, you know,

[00:34:42] normal people, it just seems

[00:34:43] crazy. I read an interview

[00:34:45] with a maintenance man who was

[00:34:46] actually working in the basement

[00:34:48] on that day that the bodies

[00:34:50] were discovered.

[00:34:51] He wasn't even interviewed by

[00:34:53] the police until six weeks

[00:34:54] later, like he was doing work

[00:34:56] in the room next door.

[00:34:57] How does that not become

[00:34:58] something that's

[00:34:58] interviewable?

[00:35:00] Yeah. So I just think that it

[00:35:01] was a planned hit

[00:35:04] because, you know, there

[00:35:05] was not robbery, money

[00:35:08] and valuables were left in the

[00:35:09] house. And the thing that I

[00:35:11] was thinking about was

[00:35:13] the fact that they had a

[00:35:14] whole group of people that

[00:35:16] worked, you know, they had

[00:35:16] staff in the house, you

[00:35:18] know, they had housekeepers.

[00:35:19] You're mentioning all the people

[00:35:20] that are in and out of their

[00:35:22] house all the time.

[00:35:23] So I feel like it's somewhat

[00:35:26] of an inside job.

[00:35:27] How do they know when the other

[00:35:29] people weren't going to be

[00:35:30] inside the house?

[00:35:33] And it seems kind of crazy that

[00:35:36] the bodies hadn't been

[00:35:36] discovered before.

[00:35:37] Right.

[00:35:39] I don't know, it just seems

[00:35:40] very suspicious to me.

[00:35:42] Well, and to your point, it

[00:35:43] sounds like both Honey and

[00:35:44] Barry were attacked

[00:35:46] in the places where they

[00:35:48] entered the home, which

[00:35:49] to me lends, you know, credence

[00:35:51] to somebody knew them

[00:35:53] or had inside knowledge

[00:35:55] of how they interacted

[00:35:57] and what their routines were

[00:35:58] like, which could be a hit

[00:36:00] or it could be somebody personal.

[00:36:02] Yeah. I mean, it seems

[00:36:04] that kind of a personal killing,

[00:36:05] but also they died

[00:36:08] basically of strangulation

[00:36:09] with belts too, which is

[00:36:11] seems, I don't know, kind of

[00:36:13] that's personal.

[00:36:14] Yeah. I think for sure it was

[00:36:16] personal. But because

[00:36:18] there were posed like the statues

[00:36:20] and Honey loved the statues,

[00:36:22] I wonder if somebody who was

[00:36:23] targeting her, not him.

[00:36:26] I don't know.

[00:36:27] Why would you post them like

[00:36:28] the statues?

[00:36:29] That almost is like a sense of

[00:36:30] humor, like an evil

[00:36:33] and evil sense of humor.

[00:36:35] Yeah.

[00:36:38] Yeah, it's it's odd

[00:36:39] and it is shocking to me

[00:36:41] that this case has not been

[00:36:43] solved.

[00:36:44] You would think that this would

[00:36:45] have like every attention

[00:36:46] of the media.

[00:36:48] Yeah. And to your point, how did

[00:36:50] his neighbors not have video

[00:36:52] cameras in 2016 or 2017?

[00:36:56] Yeah. Yeah.

[00:36:57] So OK. So of course, what happened

[00:36:59] to the house?

[00:37:01] According to a report by Dennis

[00:37:02] Curry, the Sherman estate was

[00:37:04] demolished in early 2019

[00:37:07] at the request of the family.

[00:37:09] As detailed in Donovan's

[00:37:11] new documentary on the killings,

[00:37:12] nearly all of the Sherman's

[00:37:14] belongings were left in the

[00:37:15] house.

[00:37:16] This fact, it has said angered

[00:37:18] construction crews on the jobs,

[00:37:20] you know, because they had all the

[00:37:21] trappings of high society,

[00:37:23] but then all the personal items

[00:37:25] to or just ripped down and

[00:37:26] pulverized by heavy machinery.

[00:37:28] So if that were the kids

[00:37:30] that did it, wouldn't you think

[00:37:31] they would have gone in and

[00:37:32] taken like everything of value

[00:37:34] out of the house as opposed to

[00:37:35] just leaving everything there?

[00:37:36] It seems like a waste.

[00:37:37] Like, you know,

[00:37:40] he and this maybe is just

[00:37:42] what is it, the rich people

[00:37:43] shit kind of things that we

[00:37:45] joke about is like, come on,

[00:37:47] even if they're inheriting all

[00:37:48] this money from their parents,

[00:37:51] wouldn't they get the art?

[00:37:52] Wouldn't they get some of the

[00:37:54] mementos from the house?

[00:37:55] Well, I expect that's what made

[00:37:56] the construction crews so angry

[00:37:58] about it. It's like it is.

[00:37:59] It's a waste.

[00:38:00] Our neighbors, I'm sure, just

[00:38:01] loved the fact that there was

[00:38:03] this empty house with, you

[00:38:04] know, all the stuff in it.

[00:38:05] Yeah, for two years.

[00:38:06] Yeah.

[00:38:07] So after the murders, but

[00:38:09] before the demolition and urban

[00:38:11] explorer entered the home

[00:38:12] and confirmed later reports that

[00:38:14] the house was chock full of

[00:38:16] these personal belongings, more

[00:38:18] curious, though, than

[00:38:20] this was a series of holes in

[00:38:22] the master bedroom's walls.

[00:38:24] Donovan uncovered the detail

[00:38:26] after speaking with the urban

[00:38:27] explorer.

[00:38:28] He said he had photos and

[00:38:29] videos of the inside of the

[00:38:30] home to substantiate his

[00:38:32] claims, including the

[00:38:33] outstanding holes in the walls.

[00:38:35] He has since suggested that

[00:38:37] someone may have been looking

[00:38:38] for Honey Sherman's missing

[00:38:40] will whether will hunting by

[00:38:42] an interested party or routine

[00:38:43] pre demo work by the construction

[00:38:45] team.

[00:38:46] The weird detail is symbolic of

[00:38:48] the weirdness of the case as a

[00:38:49] whole he goes on to say.

[00:38:52] Yeah, yeah, that's weird

[00:38:55] on many, many levels.

[00:38:57] All right, ladies, you know what

[00:38:58] I'm going to ask you, Alana,

[00:39:00] would you live there? Would

[00:39:01] you list it?

[00:39:04] That's a tough one.

[00:39:07] I think I would.

[00:39:09] Not live there.

[00:39:11] And I would list it.

[00:39:13] OK, yeah. No.

[00:39:16] Wouldn't live there either.

[00:39:19] Yeah, I mean, maybe, maybe

[00:39:21] list it.

[00:39:22] I feel like this was going to

[00:39:23] always be kind of a hard sell

[00:39:25] look waiting for the right

[00:39:27] property because you know when

[00:39:28] you're at such a high price

[00:39:29] point, especially in 2017

[00:39:32] in Toronto.

[00:39:33] And it was a 1980s style

[00:39:36] home. It sounds like very kind

[00:39:37] of particular that might

[00:39:40] not, you know,

[00:39:42] lend itself is an easy sale

[00:39:44] for any old average rich

[00:39:46] person.

[00:39:48] But then with a murder in the

[00:39:50] house, I don't know.

[00:39:51] I wonder if they tried to sell it

[00:39:53] before demolishing it or they

[00:39:55] just decided it might just be

[00:39:56] easier to sell the lot with

[00:39:59] and let it be a clean slate.

[00:40:00] Yeah, especially given the style

[00:40:02] of the house for sure.

[00:40:04] So I think I would actually

[00:40:05] live in this one

[00:40:08] because I do feel like it

[00:40:10] was targeted to Barry and

[00:40:12] Honey, who I think Barry was

[00:40:14] probably by all accounts a real

[00:40:15] jackass.

[00:40:16] And so there's not like he had

[00:40:18] it coming for sure. That's not

[00:40:19] where I'm going. I'm just

[00:40:20] saying like it seems like it had

[00:40:22] more to do with him than

[00:40:24] the

[00:40:25] location or

[00:40:28] I don't know. And it doesn't

[00:40:29] seem particularly brutal.

[00:40:33] Yeah, I mean, it definitely

[00:40:34] seemed like they knew whoever

[00:40:36] didn't knew who they were going

[00:40:37] after. And you know,

[00:40:40] yeah. I don't.

[00:40:41] Yeah. And I would list it, I think

[00:40:42] working with Barry Sherman would

[00:40:43] be fascinating.

[00:40:45] I wouldn't want to work with them.

[00:40:46] Oh, yeah. I mean, he would be

[00:40:48] hard to work with, but I

[00:40:49] don't know. Sometimes I like

[00:40:51] that challenge.

[00:40:53] He had a autobiography

[00:40:56] that he had written

[00:40:58] that investigators found

[00:41:00] in the house that hadn't been

[00:41:02] published yet.

[00:41:03] But it just

[00:41:05] read to me of a lot of arrogance,

[00:41:07] some of the snippets that I

[00:41:09] read about it.

[00:41:10] And it was just very arrogant

[00:41:12] of I did this.

[00:41:14] I made this money.

[00:41:15] Yeah, you want to know how I did

[00:41:17] it? Like, I don't know. I just

[00:41:19] it got it.

[00:41:20] It just gave me like a little

[00:41:22] insight into his personality,

[00:41:24] the snippets I read that I was

[00:41:26] like, OK,

[00:41:27] I see who we're running up

[00:41:28] against.

[00:41:30] Absolutely.

[00:41:30] Yeah. And I just don't think

[00:41:31] you get to that level of

[00:41:33] success without sort of being

[00:41:35] an arrogant asshole.

[00:41:36] Yeah. You have to step on

[00:41:37] people and get this.

[00:41:38] Yeah, exactly.

[00:41:40] All right. Well, we hope you guys

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[00:42:06] All right. Bye.

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