52 - Lizzie Borden

[00:00:05] At the intersection of True Crime and Real Estate, you'll find Crime Estate.

[00:00:09] I'm Heather, and my name is Elena, as real estate agents and True Crime junkies

[00:00:13] we view crimes through a different lens.

[00:00:16] So walk through the door of some of the most notorious True Crime with us.

[00:00:19] And discover how sometimes the scene of the crime has its own story to tell.

[00:00:27] Hey y'all, welcome to today's episode of Crime Estate, which is being brought to you by my

[00:00:32] friend and fellow real estate agent, Elena, today you've got a good story for us.

[00:00:36] Yeah, I think so, I think something that we're all familiar with a little bit.

[00:00:41] Well, so we were talking about this off air, and today's story is a name I know,

[00:00:47] and it's one of those things that you think you should know the full story on, but maybe you don't really.

[00:00:52] Right, yeah, and I think if our calendars are making sense, this will drop when you're actually in this part of the country.

[00:00:58] Oh, yeah, I do have a little trip coming up.

[00:01:00] Yeah, so read is this in New England. It is. Okay. Yeah. And we should mention we're joined as always by our friend and commentator and producer Melanie. Hey, Mal, glad you're here with us.

[00:01:11] Yay. Now, you mentioned this early on when we wanted to start doing a podcast when we were kind of brainstorming what are we going to do?

[00:01:17] And you'd mentioned this first.

[00:01:19] But the story, you mean the story.

[00:01:20] But it's one of those stories that I acted like I know what I was talking about because there's been books and movies about it over, you know, the last hundred years.

[00:01:29] But honestly, I don't really know that much about. So I haven't started to hear about your deep dive into it.

[00:01:36] Well, I remembered when you mentioned it early on in a starting this adventure.

[00:01:40] I kind of hesitated doing it because I thought it was pretty.

[00:01:44] Nope, we're at the lot of people knew about it. So I'm excited to talk about it.

[00:01:47] And you know, over the past 50 plus episodes, I've given several glimpses into my childhood.

[00:01:52] I remember, you know, I was reading the Inkel Blood and Fourth Grade.

[00:01:56] I was watching documentaries about Charles Meanson and elementary school. And of course, my long-time crush on Steve Martin.

[00:02:02] You and Steve Martin. I love that.

[00:02:04] Yeah, I'm going to start buying you like Steve Martin.

[00:02:05] Okay. Yeah. Sounds good.

[00:02:08] So another detail about my childhood is that I took a deep dive in the Lizzy boarden, the documentary when I was an elementary school.

[00:02:15] And they talked about this.

[00:02:18] This, there was a nursery rhyme.

[00:02:19] I think the kids would skip rope to this to this.

[00:02:23] I don't know what he's not told me.

[00:02:24] What do you call this?

[00:02:25] Yeah.

[00:02:27] Like to the toilet. So this has been stuck in my head for the past almost 40 years.

[00:02:33] It goes Lizzy boarden, found an axe, gave her father 40 wax when she saw what she'd done, gave her mother 41.

[00:02:40] I think I reversed that.

[00:02:42] It's mother for so yeah.

[00:02:43] You had jump rope to that.

[00:02:45] The kids then would jump rope to that after the story became famous.

[00:02:50] It even stuck in my head for 40 years.

[00:02:52] Well, you know, I was looking into the origin story as one would do for that rhyme.

[00:02:58] And it's kind of unattributed.

[00:03:00] But they are saying that it was by an anonymous author to basically sell newspaper articles during this time here.

[00:03:08] But a lot of these nursery rhymes, they really did stuck in people's cultural memory through the skipping

[00:03:15] rope. But, you know, that leads me to one of my fun things to do.

[00:03:19] So we'll go into these random research things and really if you think about it,

[00:03:24] almost all these themus nursery rhymes are dark.

[00:03:29] They are real dark.

[00:03:30] Yeah, like real dark.

[00:03:33] I always heard some of these like hands, Christian and Anderson stories were pretty dark.

[00:03:38] But the nursery rhymes actually really recount dark disturbing tales of death and disease

[00:03:45] and violent.

[00:03:48] And just wanted to kind of remind you of a few of the favorite bad ones,

[00:03:52] you know, ring around the rosy.

[00:03:54] I was just telling my younger son this this weekend about how that actually supposedly had

[00:04:00] you do with the book, bubonic plague in medieval Europe because they believed the ringing around the rosy

[00:04:06] was like a reference to that red circular rash that was common in some types of the plague.

[00:04:13] And the posies were the flowers that people carried off because they thought it would then

[00:04:19] to off the illness.

[00:04:21] That's why they had pockets full of them, right?

[00:04:22] Oh yeah.

[00:04:23] Oh yeah.

[00:04:23] Oh yeah.

[00:04:23] Oh yeah.

[00:04:23] Oh yeah.

[00:04:26] I mean, but it's not even like the other ones are like Mary Mary quite contrary.

[00:04:32] They were saying that might have been bloody Mary the daughter of Henry the eighth and the murder

[00:04:38] of the Protestant.

[00:04:39] And then there was, but if you, sorry, not to interrupt, but if you think about it, a lot of our

[00:04:47] history was passed down through word of mouth.

[00:04:52] Oh yeah.

[00:04:52] For so long, right?

[00:04:53] There wasn't a lot of people.

[00:04:55] There wasn't like the written press for a while.

[00:04:57] There weren't a lot of people that could read.

[00:04:59] And so that is sort of how people passed down.

[00:05:02] And Hills of what was going on.

[00:05:04] Yeah, my grandmother, I'm the Gavartouji, this my mother's mother was a professional story

[00:05:08] tower.

[00:05:09] Oh yeah.

[00:05:10] So she had TV show, but she had lived with Eskimo, she went in the great well, a China one, the first

[00:05:16] people to walk in there and she was passionate about capturing the stories because that was how

[00:05:23] people passed information about it.

[00:05:26] But yeah, I mean, like if you keep going three blind mice, one of the theories is that represents

[00:05:31] three Protestant loyalists who were accused of plotting against the Catholic Quimari in the

[00:05:38] 16th century.

[00:05:39] She didn't cut off their tails, but she did hang them at the stake or burn them at the stake

[00:05:45] afterwards.

[00:05:46] And you know, you can even, if you still start thinking about, you know, there are some Jack and

[00:05:55] some of the royalists against parliamentarians during the English Civil War.

[00:06:00] Yeah, the list goes on and on, but it really is interesting when you start reading about

[00:06:05] some of these old nursery tells you like, yeah, kind of more big.

[00:06:08] But you catchy, but yours might be like a little on the nips.

[00:06:12] Was it what actually happened as opposed to the illusion?

[00:06:17] Yeah, I like the numbers are wrong.

[00:06:21] I like you to some of the stuff is wrong, but I'm directional, like correct.

[00:06:25] Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, go for it.

[00:06:27] Okay, so let's set the scene on the fascinating over 100 year old crime that occurred

[00:06:31] on 92 second street and fall river Massachusetts in August of 1892.

[00:06:37] Lizzy Borden was born and fall river Massachusetts on July 19th of which is if you could go.

[00:06:43] Yeah, yeah, July 19th, 18th of 14 date.

[00:06:46] Okay, I'm going to tell you how to do it.

[00:06:48] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:06:50] To father Andrew Jackson Warden and mother Sarah Anthony Warden.

[00:06:55] Andrew purchased a two story home in 1872 and at that time,

[00:06:59] it was a two tenant dwelling so he remodeled it to be more suitable for small family.

[00:07:05] The board and family was very well to do.

[00:07:07] Angie made a fortune in the manufacturing of furniture and caskets before moving into property development.

[00:07:12] But despite the families wealth, they chose to reside in the more industrial sector of the city.

[00:07:17] That was not part of the area that someone of their wealth would live.

[00:07:21] Interesting, okay.

[00:07:22] Andrew was notorious for being free goal even for going a new modern convenience other rich at the time.

[00:07:27] Endor plumbing.

[00:07:29] Yeah, I don't, yeah, no, I want the endor plumbing.

[00:07:32] Yeah, especially if they could afford it for real.

[00:07:34] Lizzy was one of two children that Andrew and Sarah had.

[00:07:37] Lizzy had an older sister Emma Lennore Borden and by all accounts,

[00:07:40] a two were very close.

[00:07:42] Unfortunately, their mother Sarah died of uterine congestion and spinal disease in 1863 when Lizzy was just three years old.

[00:07:50] Three years later, Andrew was remarry to 37-year-old Abby Dorelle Gray.

[00:07:56] Lizzy is said to had no memories of her mother so essentially Abby was a mother to the girls having entered their lives very young.

[00:08:03] But despite this, Lizzy did not like her stepmother and even called her Mrs. Borden instead of something more endearing.

[00:08:09] Lizzy believed that Abby only married her father for as well so the two did not have the best relationship.

[00:08:15] This was her opinion at three years old?

[00:08:17] Well, no, not at three, but later on and later on.

[00:08:20] Thank you for clarifying.

[00:08:21] Well, I'm not, I'm guessing.

[00:08:22] I mean, maybe she was a really smart three year old.

[00:08:26] Lizzy and Emma were very active members of the Central Congressional Church.

[00:08:30] They taught tennis school and were involved in numerous religious and social organizations.

[00:08:35] And despite her well-to-do family and her social standing, Lizzy is noted to have had a chip on our shoulder.

[00:08:40] She was centered her father because he seemed to have shun due to his forgale the perks that would come along with having their wealth.

[00:08:46] I don't know if I should say this but I'm going to say anyway because it was noted in several articles that Lizzy was not considered a great beauty at that time.

[00:08:54] And almost hate bringing that up, but like I said it was noted several places so for what it's worth I'm just retelling that here.

[00:09:00] Okay.

[00:09:01] I'm sorry. So are you alluding to the fact that like maybe had her father let her use his wealth for like better clothing and like better hair do's that she would have felt better about herself?

[00:09:17] I'm just saying that could have been why she had a chip on her shoulder because she wasn't considered a great beauty and she was not marriage and have me suitors and

[00:09:29] Well neither was her older sister too which was kind of interesting for a family you know that was fairly well off at this time

[00:09:37] that both women were by that time period considered old mates.

[00:09:43] Maybe Emma was ugly too. I don't know.

[00:09:45] I don't know.

[00:09:46] She sure was fine. She looked fine.

[00:09:49] But if Dad was that wealthy, that would have still brought suitors.

[00:09:53] Yeah, what were thought?

[00:09:54] I mean, remember he didn't spend the money.

[00:09:57] Sister, I've been watching the guilty age recently and so I know all about you know the suitors come in for the money.

[00:10:04] Yes, I love that show.

[00:10:05] Yeah. So in addition to Andrew Abbey, Lizzie and Emma the home at 92 second street was also inhabited by their maid Bridget Sullivan.

[00:10:14] And so the bullying point was definitely on the rise in the board and home in the years and months leading up to the murder.

[00:10:19] For example, Lizzie had built a chicken coop in the yard to house her beloved chickens and Andrew resented the children from the neighborhood coming into the yard to see the chickens.

[00:10:29] So he took a small axe and beheaded all of the chickens.

[00:10:32] Her dad did her dad did that. That's horrible. I know.

[00:10:36] Right.

[00:10:36] And not only that is also reported around this time that he amended his will and bequeath all of his money and possessions to Abbey.

[00:10:43] And it's sort of filed effy to his daughters. He began gifting property to Abbey's relatives.

[00:10:48] So the girls were basically watching their inheritance being depleted and given away.

[00:10:53] Right. Yeah. Exactly.

[00:10:55] So fast forward a little to August of 1892.

[00:10:59] John Morris, the brother of Lizzie and Emma's mother Sarah came to visit Andrew at the home.

[00:11:05] And that was rather unexpected visit as he was said to have not been the one to visit the family after the passing of his sister.

[00:11:12] Okay. So he hadn't been there in like maybe 20 some of you had to come along with this.

[00:11:16] Okay. But do you think word was getting to him that Andrew was like giving away all his money?

[00:11:22] I think it's a good theory because I couldn't find anything that really nailed down why he was there, but that's definitely been speculated.

[00:11:30] Yeah.

[00:11:31] Maybe you felt like either he wanted a piece of that or see the family needed a piece of that or maybe felt bad for the girl.

[00:11:38] I don't really know.

[00:11:38] Or even that his sister would have wanted the girls to be married and so do I need to go and figure out why they're not being presented in society.

[00:11:45] And what do we need to do? Right.

[00:11:47] Okay.

[00:11:49] So after Andrew and John visited for about an hour Andrew headed out, I'm going to back up a minute because he spent the night.

[00:11:56] That was August 2nd. He spent the night stayed in their upstairs guest suite.

[00:12:01] And then on August 3rd they had about a chat for about an hour.

[00:12:05] John left the house and Andrew also left he went out for a stroll.

[00:12:09] So John was going back home. Andrew stayed and he was just going to go for a little walk.

[00:12:13] And Abby was left there and she went to the second floor suite to tidy up after John visit.

[00:12:19] And it was there that Abby was attacked with an axe.

[00:12:22] According to details of the autopsy, Abby's first blow she experienced was just about her left ear indicating that she was facing her attacker.

[00:12:29] The first blow caused her to fall to the floor on her belly where her attacker then sat on her back while striking the back overhead in 19 times.

[00:12:37] Yeah.

[00:12:39] It is speculated that about 10 30 went Andrew returned from his walk. He laid down on his favorite bench and settled in for now.

[00:12:46] At around 11 it was reported by Bridget the maid that she heard Lizzie scream for her.

[00:12:50] Lizzie and trucked Bridget to call the doctor because someone had broken in and killed her father.

[00:12:55] Andrew had been bludgeoned with seemingly the same axe that killed Abby and he was struck with 11 blows.

[00:13:02] So a different number than what does it on the right?

[00:13:05] Yeah and that's kind of why we were saying it was too much.

[00:13:08] Correct in the nursery tale but no the numbers are off.

[00:13:14] Yeah. And I thought this was really interesting and I think this will play for me this will play on how I answer our last question of the podcast.

[00:13:20] But the autopsy is performed in the living room.

[00:13:22] Oh, interesting.

[00:13:23] Yeah. Okay. Kind of crosses me out.

[00:13:27] Yeah.

[00:13:27] But I mean at that time when people have been laid out in their living rooms like the room.

[00:13:32] And for the viewing or whatever.

[00:13:34] Right. Yeah. Yeah. There have that probably would have happened at home.

[00:13:38] True. So police question Lizzie and Bridget as they were the only ones in the home at the time.

[00:13:42] And Lizzie's story changed a few times during the course of the questioning.

[00:13:45] First she was in the barn, then she was in the garden and she was in the basement.

[00:13:49] So all sorts of inconsistency.

[00:13:50] Right. Right. And now they also thought they found what could have been the murder weapon in the basement of the home.

[00:13:57] But because there was not DNA testing in that time period,

[00:13:59] they could only go by what they saw and they thought the axelip to clean to have been the murder weapon.

[00:14:07] We've seen a lot of crimes with access.

[00:14:11] I mean, I guess that was a popular. Yeah, you're right.

[00:14:14] We've had the same discussion before we're like, why is everybody dying with an axon?

[00:14:19] But I think I mean, that was probably much easier weapon.

[00:14:24] And we're just more available. Right.

[00:14:27] It was used, I mean, it was used for day to day living just for firewood.

[00:14:32] Yeah. And what year are we in now? Like the late 1802.

[00:14:35] Okay. So they're really like there's not a lot of evidence.

[00:14:38] We're not talking DNA. We're not talking like fingerprints. Yeah.

[00:14:42] Yeah. It seemed to personal too.

[00:14:45] An ax. You mean ax. Yeah. I agree.

[00:14:47] And I saw noted in several reports. I was a small ax.

[00:14:50] I was a small ax. I sounds even more large. Yeah.

[00:14:54] So I guess because of the wounds, they're able to to ascertain that.

[00:14:57] But I guess that to that even some even more personal.

[00:15:00] Like they had to be up close.

[00:15:01] Yeah. This person.

[00:15:04] Yeah. Okay.

[00:15:05] Yep.

[00:15:06] So after this investigation, Lizzy Woodstein trial for the murders of her father and

[00:15:10] stepmother.

[00:15:11] But because at the time when we thought to be incapable of a crime of this magnitude,

[00:15:16] she was acquitted and would walk free.

[00:15:18] No one else was ever charged with the murders.

[00:15:20] Okay. Was there only evidence that she was like the only one home?

[00:15:24] I don't know. It was a her and Bridget that were home.

[00:15:26] Okay. Yeah.

[00:15:28] But there was, there was some discussion of maybe the uncle because he had been staying there.

[00:15:33] But he was supposedly on a walk about.

[00:15:36] I see. I feel like they're mentioning this small ax because they're like a woman could pick that up.

[00:15:41] Oh. That's smart.

[00:15:42] I think that's what they're alluding to there.

[00:15:45] Apparently because women were considered so demure back then that they,

[00:15:51] and because of you know, their wealth.

[00:15:53] She could never have done this.

[00:15:55] And I think even the thought of patracy,

[00:15:57] it was really difficult for people to consider at that time.

[00:16:01] Like not only would a woman not kill.

[00:16:03] She would not kill her father.

[00:16:05] I was watching a TikTok video about this a little while ago.

[00:16:10] So take it with a big grand salt.

[00:16:11] But they were saying that in that town there had been another ax murder

[00:16:17] that year of a young girl.

[00:16:20] But in that scenario, it had been killed by a handyman around the house

[00:16:27] who was upset with the girl's father who for not paying him.

[00:16:31] And so the idea was okay,

[00:16:33] that was a violent crime of a man upset, you know,

[00:16:41] and she was in many times.

[00:16:43] So they were using the analogy of it had to be someone in the throes of passion

[00:16:48] and with the physique to be able to handle it.

[00:16:53] I could definitely think that at that time period,

[00:16:56] there were not many women killers and definitely not in such a brutal way

[00:17:01] that it would seem likely.

[00:17:04] And again back to like people thinking that people who live a certain lifestyle

[00:17:09] or have a certain amount of money would never be able to do something like that.

[00:17:13] Like they just always do a lot.

[00:17:15] Yeah, every article called her mild mannered.

[00:17:17] She was like a Sunday school teacher.

[00:17:20] Okay, but not to be gruesome.

[00:17:22] But if you're sitting on somebody's back and you kill them

[00:17:26] or hit the person that you're sitting on with an ax in 19 times,

[00:17:30] the blood spatter has to be crazy.

[00:17:33] So like did she have her maid helper clean up?

[00:17:37] I don't know.

[00:17:39] I'm suspect.

[00:17:39] Well, that goes kind of into some of the theories on why this happened.

[00:17:43] But I did read an article that stated some of the neighbors had reported that she was burning things

[00:17:49] at some point in the police came under fire at that point because they hadn't done it really thorough investigation

[00:17:55] of the home.

[00:17:58] So yes.

[00:18:00] Yes, you think there would have been a lot of blood spatter and potentially could maybe sheep

[00:18:04] burn her clothes.

[00:18:06] Right.

[00:18:06] Thank you for saying that because I forgot your question.

[00:18:09] We're doing a little bit of a recording marathon here, so we're on like two or three.

[00:18:13] What did Heather just say?

[00:18:17] All right.

[00:18:18] Okay.

[00:18:18] Yeah.

[00:18:19] I was confused about the blood spatter because yes.

[00:18:22] I mean this was in the late 1890s but for something as gruesome as this, it seems like

[00:18:27] that would be an obvious question.

[00:18:30] There wasn't a investigation that was revealed on the day before the murders.

[00:18:34] A woman identified as Lizzy reportedly tried to buy plastic acid repair, a seal skin

[00:18:41] cape but they refused to sell it to her and they thought that was something that was sort of

[00:18:47] related to this.

[00:18:48] But what they were also talking about was that you know, they didn't really search until about

[00:18:54] two days after the murders and they found no blood soaked clothing.

[00:18:58] So, but that would have given a lot of time to be able to clean, you know, get rid of

[00:19:03] the blood stains.

[00:19:04] And when investigated search, the house saying counter what he said was some blood

[00:19:07] and cloth or rags in the basement.

[00:19:11] But Lizzy indicated that she was menstruating.

[00:19:14] And so that they were like, you've never bought.

[00:19:18] Okay, so can't you just see the investigators being like, oh,

[00:19:20] menstruating.

[00:19:21] Never mind.

[00:19:22] You have to kind of see here.

[00:19:24] We're not going to talk about this.

[00:19:25] It was very clear.

[00:19:26] And the fact that they didn't really look and do that investigation for a couple of days,

[00:19:32] there was definitely a lot of opportunity.

[00:19:34] If it was her that there had been an opportunity to get rid of stuff.

[00:19:40] And like you said earlier, there was, well, there's a lot of theories.

[00:19:43] And one of them was it could have been the uncle who did that.

[00:19:49] And then but most of the theories are around Lizzy herself doing it.

[00:19:52] There's not a lot of speculation that anyone else besides her.

[00:19:55] But don't you think the timing is intriguing that it happened while the uncle was there.

[00:20:01] Was that to put suspicion on the uncle or did he was he the catalyst for some sort of change that was about to happen?

[00:20:11] And so sorry, I'm laughing.

[00:20:15] These ladies were waving really hard like, like, outside my window here.

[00:20:20] Oh yeah, outside.

[00:20:21] So I mean, obviously they thought was you, but also if they could actually see that we had

[00:20:25] some of these heads and so on, it would be kind of funny.

[00:20:29] Yeah, the thing that it was, it was also in the middle of the day.

[00:20:33] Now her sister Emma was on an unusual vacation or trip agon to her sister were was not there.

[00:20:41] But it just seemed to be like this seems like a crime of passion.

[00:20:45] Whether you call it a romantic passion, but it this seems a violent death.

[00:20:50] But in the middle of the day, I think it was a 10 or 11 in the morning.

[00:20:56] I don't know why it just seems an odd time for this to ever occurred.

[00:21:00] She said Lizzy said she was in the barn the whole time because she was an avid fisherant woman and she was working on

[00:21:08] getting preparing some leaded weights to go fishing.

[00:21:12] I don't know, the whole thing is just such an odd, unusual storyline.

[00:21:17] Yeah, for sure.

[00:21:19] People also said that potentially Lizzy and Bridget were having a relationship in that the Andrew and Abby found out about it

[00:21:30] and for whatever reason she thought that she had to kill them because that wasn't, I'm sure, deeply frowned upon at that time.

[00:21:39] They also, there are also theories that Lizzy was a victim of incest from her father.

[00:21:43] So I mean, really it sounds like they're just throwing like darts at a dart board to come up with a reason.

[00:21:50] There's no obvious reasons.

[00:21:52] Oh, well, she could have been having an intimate relationship with the housekeeper or dad could have been molesting her or oh, right?

[00:22:01] But they don't have any proof in any of that.

[00:22:03] They're just guessing.

[00:22:05] They're just guessing.

[00:22:06] Yeah, and apparently during the trial, they were trying to brought out the skulls to show the hatchet.

[00:22:14] And Lizzy fainted during that scene.

[00:22:18] But apparently modern day investigators put a lot of suspicion of whether it was even the hatchet because apparently there's the hatchet is in a museum involved river.

[00:22:29] You can go see it.

[00:22:31] And now they're saying, you know, they're exactly.

[00:22:34] I'm giving Melanie this look like, oh, how like, yes.

[00:22:37] So they think it was a different weapon altogether.

[00:22:40] They are suspicious of that weapon.

[00:22:42] Have been able to produce the effects.

[00:22:46] Yeah, I don't know.

[00:22:47] Well, initially, there's a year ago and we're still talking.

[00:22:50] Yeah, I mean, initially investigators did say it was very clean so they didn't think it could be that at the beginning, right?

[00:22:57] So maybe it wasn't.

[00:22:58] Maybe it was a drifter.

[00:23:00] And he took his hatchet with him.

[00:23:03] And we've just been blaming Lizzy for this whole Lizzy.

[00:23:07] Yeah, I'm pretty sure she did it.

[00:23:08] Oh, you think so.

[00:23:09] Okay.

[00:23:09] Yeah, that's one thing that makes sense to me.

[00:23:11] And then yeah, why?

[00:23:13] Why do you think she did it?

[00:23:15] I think she probably was upset that her father was doing, you know, doing what he's doing, cutting them out of the will and giving things to Abby and her family.

[00:23:26] And it was just her in the house.

[00:23:28] And they were just killed and then that's it.

[00:23:31] And it happened all happened within the matter of like two hours.

[00:23:34] It's like they were both killed and they were both there.

[00:23:37] And they're not seeing anything as long as it doesn't like a huge maintenance on the huge house.

[00:23:43] Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.

[00:23:47] She is the logical suspect.

[00:23:50] And I don't know.

[00:23:52] So she gets acquitted because nobody can, you know, there's no strong tie.

[00:23:58] And she maintains her in sense into her death in her 70.

[00:24:03] And she, um, I feel like there's something that goes on.

[00:24:09] Apparently she and her sister Emma finally get the inheritance which in today's dollars is like eight million dollars or so.

[00:24:18] Oh, okay.

[00:24:18] Yeah, it was a size of bull amount.

[00:24:20] And they bought a mansion.

[00:24:23] I think the graystone mansion in Falls River, what you can go visit today was much more of a step up from the board in house where the,

[00:24:32] and the industrial part of town, yeah, without indoor plumbing.

[00:24:36] And she definitely keeps a quiet life and away from people and doesn't have lots of friends but then I also read some references to her also throwing really fun parties.

[00:24:49] So I wasn't sure what the truth about it was, but the craziest part to me was so Emma her sister because it helped to fund her appeal with the lawyers in the lawsuit.

[00:25:00] And her sister spoke out at the law in the trial on her behalf.

[00:25:07] And then they live in this mansion together for 12 years and then some of them happens.

[00:25:13] And it her older sister moves out, never to speak to Lizzie again in her life and goes and lives in a succession of a boarding house.

[00:25:24] And she says even though she had a lot of money and changes her name and tells people she's trying to make sure that Lizzie doesn't know where she is.

[00:25:31] Yeah, oh, it could be that she confessed to her sister and her sister didn't like that or wanted to go to the authorities and.

[00:25:40] And then she said, I'm going to come and definitely went down interesting interesting.

[00:25:44] Yeah, so that was a kind of like I was like trying to figure and get my head wrapped around it.

[00:25:51] Like what could have what could have happened?

[00:25:53] Yeah, not I have no idea but.

[00:25:55] And would make for good movie.

[00:25:57] Yeah, oh, it has there's been several movies and retellings of this.

[00:26:00] I guess let's assume Lizzie boardens a little bit crazy because I think you would have to be to kill your father and stepmother.

[00:26:08] Maybe that's why the suitors didn't come around.

[00:26:11] Maybe they did come around and they're like, oh, I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole. She's crazy crazy and ugly.

[00:26:17] No, I can do crazy. I can do ugly. I can do.

[00:26:22] Yeah, so now that house is a museum and a hotel and there's been multiple.

[00:26:30] Documentations of hauntings and ghostly apparitions and voices and just super, you should totally go.

[00:26:38] Would you go?

[00:26:40] Oh, I'm excited. We're really bad.

[00:26:41] I could know.

[00:26:42] I'm not your mouth. No. No.

[00:26:45] Maybe I'd go outside.

[00:26:47] You would just like walk like a little bit.

[00:26:48] You would walk outside.

[00:26:50] Yeah, take a picture.

[00:26:51] Exactly.

[00:26:52] I was there but not inside.

[00:26:55] I don't think you'd even get on the street.

[00:26:57] Yeah.

[00:26:58] But is it because of the reports of the ghost in the mysterious happening over the years?

[00:27:04] Yeah, not necessarily because of the crime because it happens along a go.

[00:27:06] I think it's more the ghost. Yeah, I don't want to think of touching to me.

[00:27:11] I don't want to bring anything back home.

[00:27:13] Yeah, because generally all three of us, if it's an older crime,

[00:27:18] or were more okay with it just because it seems like it's been so long since then.

[00:27:23] But they've made a cottage industry of promoting this murder in the house.

[00:27:28] So it's never been, it's not getting a lot of good vibes afterwards.

[00:27:35] I don't think it's a good idea to get rid of the crime that occurred there.

[00:27:40] I mean, I don't know that the crime would dissuade me from living in this house because of the length of time.

[00:27:45] Because of the length of time and because, I mean, it wasn't a child involved.

[00:27:51] I could probably be okay with it.

[00:27:53] But if it was in an industrial area and it didn't have indoor plumbing,

[00:27:56] I'd have had it out on this house for a lot of reasons.

[00:27:59] And when they bought the house to make it a museum,

[00:28:04] they painstakingly took time to recreate.

[00:28:07] It's almost like a shrine to what happened.

[00:28:09] And tours will go and lay out.

[00:28:11] There's voters on the internet of the actual crime scene.

[00:28:15] And so they would lay out like the dad was on the bench and it's really morbid.

[00:28:20] So weird.

[00:28:21] It's so weird.

[00:28:22] I don't know what made me think of this,

[00:28:24] but my mom's here visiting.

[00:28:25] We were just talking this morning and apparently her parent's house,

[00:28:29] when she was growing up, was the first one in the county to have indoor lighting.

[00:28:35] And so she said people would drive by at night to see the lamp lit up in the window.

[00:28:40] Like they would slow down and watch that.

[00:28:44] And so I don't know, the indoor plumbing kind of made me think like,

[00:28:48] I can't imagine somebody that was so good at business living without some of those comforts like that.

[00:28:58] I don't know what they would think there would be a, I don't know.

[00:29:01] But I mean he had grown up without them.

[00:29:04] So I mean, I think we're putting our modern days then on going,

[00:29:09] oh it's like we're camping right now,

[00:29:10] but no this would be like his normal and then the indoor plumbing would be fancy.

[00:29:16] And so that was the this this is bringing up all the conversations I've had with my parents.

[00:29:21] My dad was telling me last night we were talking and he was like until the day my grandpa died,

[00:29:26] he had like a chamber pot.

[00:29:29] The he would use and never had indoor plumbing at his house.

[00:29:34] Can you imagine?

[00:29:36] No.

[00:29:37] Well, my husband's grandmother on his mother's side never had air conditioning.

[00:29:45] And I mean, I met our several times, you know,

[00:29:49] and family members kept buying window units and she would never turn around.

[00:29:54] And sort of a point of pride for her that she had never been to her restaurant before in her life.

[00:30:00] And had never had indoor AC.

[00:30:03] Wow, this was your great grandmother.

[00:30:06] No Jason's mom.

[00:30:07] Oh, Jason's grandma.

[00:30:08] Oh my gosh.

[00:30:09] I remember when my grandparents got air conditioning it was a big deal at the time because their house was built.

[00:30:15] Well, my mom was born in 55, so like 1958 maybe.

[00:30:19] Yeah, they didn't have air conditioning until like maybe the mid 90s.

[00:30:23] Oh, yeah.

[00:30:25] Wow, that's crazy.

[00:30:26] Well, that was a short one but.

[00:30:29] No, I really enjoyed it and so I'll be up in like New England.

[00:30:35] You think I can go visit?

[00:30:36] Yeah, do it.

[00:30:37] I don't know how far that is from where you're going to be.

[00:30:39] But it's all kind of like company New England's.

[00:30:41] Oh, it's right.

[00:30:42] Yeah, I'm just where everything's just far apart.

[00:30:44] You can totally do it.

[00:30:45] Yeah, our our Boston listeners are probably like, oh my gosh.

[00:30:49] That's the first one.

[00:30:50] What was the tie-up there?

[00:30:52] Compared to like, well, look this up.

[00:30:54] We'll look this up and definitely I think that there might be some other cool.

[00:30:59] Oh, remember in Newport you're going to have some pictures that you can take.

[00:31:03] I'm going to find a good crime a good crime that occurred there.

[00:31:07] But okay, before we wrap up we have some really exciting news.

[00:31:10] Yes.

[00:31:11] Can we share this?

[00:31:12] Please.

[00:31:12] Okay.

[00:31:13] So we have been promoting this like live mini-sode for a while and then we stop promoting it because we got busy with our kids and some are all the things.

[00:31:21] But you guys listened and you still submitted your entries into the contest.

[00:31:25] So thank you so much for that.

[00:31:27] And so as a reminder, the way you could win was to leave a five star review until it's why you loved the podcast and why you should be picked for our mini-sode.

[00:31:37] And then you had to sign the submission with your Instagram handle.

[00:31:42] So we have picked randomly, Fogirl 81.

[00:31:45] Thank you so much, Fogirl 81.

[00:31:48] Mel, do you have her?

[00:31:50] Her quote pulled up.

[00:31:51] I think I message it to you earlier.

[00:31:53] Oh, via text if you want to look at that.

[00:31:57] But thank you to everybody that submitted we we've had so much fun reading your reviews and it makes us so happy.

[00:32:03] Thank you to Fogirl 81 for her investor review that said cool angle on a popular genre.

[00:32:10] Love the new angle and to crime learning about the house and what happened to it since the crime is so interesting.

[00:32:15] Remodeled question mark torn down changed the address.

[00:32:19] Does anyone really buy it after?

[00:32:21] Is it a good investment?

[00:32:23] Really makes you think if you could live in a resonance or something horrible happened and yeah, we have all those questions and discussions all the time.

[00:32:32] You think there were talking about it just on the podcast and sadly we are not.

[00:32:36] We are talking about it all the time.

[00:32:38] So we're talking about the actual at the restaurant you know in a school playground building so.

[00:32:45] Oh, maybe this resonates for some of you.

[00:32:47] You so much, but we're going to be doing our first live mini-sode in the next couple of weeks.

[00:32:53] Fogirl 81 is going to get to invite a few of her friends to join us and so of course will have a little bit of an episode,

[00:33:00] but we'll also have some fun Q&A and some behind the scenes.

[00:33:03] So we'll make sure we post that on our socials so if you guys want to get to know us a little better, that'll be a fun way.

[00:33:09] Do that totally.

[00:33:10] Yeah, yeah.

[00:33:11] Alright, so we will be back with not next week.

[00:33:14] We will have this live zoom mini-sode very soon and we'll be back next week with another fun episode and we hope y'all tune in.

[00:33:22] Bye bye bye.

[00:33:24] Hey y'all.

[00:33:25] Thanks for listening and being a part of our crime estate family.

[00:33:28] If you're curious about today's featured crime estate, you can find additional photos and details from today's episode.

[00:33:33] Online at crime estate.com or on Facebook and Instagram by following at crime estate podcast.

[00:33:40] Have a crime estate we should cover?

[00:33:41] Let us know.

[00:33:42] She doesn't email at crime estatepodcast at gmail.com until next week.