53 - The Widow of Highland Park

[00:00:05] [SPEAKER_01]: At the intersection of True Crime and Real Estate, you'll find Crime Estate.

[00:00:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Heather, and my name is Elena, as real estate agents and True Crime junkies we view crimes through a different lens.

[00:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So walk through the door of some of the most notorious True Crimes with us.

[00:00:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And discover how sometimes the scene of the crime has its own story to tell.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey y'all, welcome back to Crime Estate.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Heather, and I'm joined as always by my co-host in Fela Real Estate Agent Elena.

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And our friend, producer and commentator Melanie, hey ladies.

[00:00:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, how's it going?

[00:00:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Great.

[00:00:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Lovely to see you ladies.

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, so we're recording on a Saturday afternoon this week which is a little different for us because Elena had a big anniversary celebration yesterday.

[00:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: What did you guys do to celebrate?

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You didn't record a podcast.

[00:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: We did not record the podcast.

[00:00:53] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Thankfully I remembered before I got here.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I mean, what sort of midweeks do you really like?

[00:01:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, wait a minute.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We can't record on Fridays.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_00]: We dropped the kids off of my parent's house and we went to dinner and we had fun.

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think we probably went home and watched anything.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: We watched something.

[00:01:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know.

[00:01:11] [SPEAKER_00]: It's easy, Breeze.

[00:01:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, super easy.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, dinner.

[00:01:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I had the best porktrop I've ever had.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah.

[00:01:16] [SPEAKER_00]: So good.

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's good.

[00:01:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Is it weird for me to say that I love your husband?

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he is just the nicest guy.

[00:01:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's such a good dad.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm totally creeped out.

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: No, are you?

[00:01:25] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm not at all.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm not.

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I know.

[00:01:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, no, he's a good guy.

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm happy that he is mine.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_00]: And unlike the story you're bringing us today, I'm happy to say that I've never tried to kill him off.

[00:01:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I'm sure he'll be happy to hear that.

[00:01:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, hopefully.

[00:01:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're right.

[00:01:41] [SPEAKER_01]: The same can't be said for today's story where I'm going to tell you about the widow of Highland Park.

[00:01:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Now this is a crime that takes place essentially right in our own backyards and the hamlet of the city within the city of Dallas, Highland Park.

[00:01:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So the Compass Real Estate website describes Highland Park as a community as tighten it as it is beautiful.

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: With cinematic parks and jaw-dropping mansions that wouldn't look out of place in Beverly Hills.

[00:02:06] [SPEAKER_01]: A family-focused neighborhood with an appreciation for the finer things in life with super Luke shopping and society swarays.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so being Dallas experts, what do you all think of this description?

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it's a dead on dead on.

[00:02:20] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, definitely.

[00:02:21] [SPEAKER_02]: We actually just had lunch there and how I'm parked today before I came here.

[00:02:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was thinking about it in the back of my mind because I knew what story we were going to do.

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm like, yeah, it really is.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's to the point that we were driving around and this is bad to say, but like we were behind a car and the had a personalized license plate on it.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And it is the daughter of the hunt family who owned the Kansas City chiefs.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And they she has her own personalized license plates.

[00:02:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So you definitely knew who it was.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: It is a fancy neighborhood, but it's beautiful and really a lot of good friends of mine live there.

[00:02:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and you know one of the things that makes the city of Highland Park unique.

[00:03:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And I should say just for those that aren't in Dallas and sort of in the know you've got Highland Park and you've got university park.

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And then together the two are called the park cities.

[00:03:10] [SPEAKER_01]: And what makes that unique is that they are completely surrounded by the city of Dallas.

[00:03:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So we're not talking about a suburb.

[00:03:16] [SPEAKER_01]: We were talking about it.

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It's own little town, you know, that has Dallas on every side of the.

[00:03:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the Vatican City, you know, it's this small dot completely surrounded by the city of Dallas.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's right. That's a great example. And so the town of Highland Park was incorporated in 1913.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It has its own school district, its own police and fire departments and its own city government.

[00:03:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And yes, it's fancy like we've said, from what I've heard the streets of Highland Park are actually laid out very similarly to the streets of Beverly Hills.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Because the same landscape designer who designed Beverly Hills was hired in 1907, design Highland Park as quote,

[00:03:58] [SPEAKER_01]: a refuge from an increasingly diverse city.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Feel like that is not a quote that holds up very well.

[00:04:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, right. Yeah, there's definitely some undertones in that and that quote that you probably wouldn't say today.

[00:04:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you all remember that radio station in the 90s they'd read the Highland Park police blotter like for entertainment because it's like dog loose on yottie goddess.

[00:04:19] [SPEAKER_00]: That was like the police blotter. No, that's a good.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's a grow up in Dallas right.

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_00]: That's right. Yeah, they would oh, that's right. You know, that was entertaining.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Like just making fun of the horrible crime.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so bad.

[00:04:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, the dog got loose.

[00:04:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and you know there has to be like some shame in having your address or name published in the night.

[00:04:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, and how long park is probably about 15 minutes or so from where the three of us live?

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_02]: And if you are familiar with SMU University, Southern Methodist University that is also where Highland Park is.

[00:04:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I would, I'm sorry.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Now go ahead.

[00:04:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I also think that Highland Park when I think about it, I think old Dallas money.

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think like other parts of the area where it's, you know, maybe people coming in from other cities and building homes.

[00:05:09] [SPEAKER_00]: It's more like these people for the most part have been in Dallas or families have been in Dallas.

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_00]: It's old money.

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, it's definitely, you know, there are some iconic names who live in Highland Park, for sure.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Let me, I'm sorry.

[00:05:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I'm not.

[00:05:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Sorry. I would just say, and it is, I mean, it is changed over time.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I should be absolutely blunt and say it's changed and there's more diversity in different people moving into the area.

[00:05:33] [SPEAKER_02]: But there is like a tradition where a lot of people would be born and raised in Highland Park,

[00:05:38] [SPEAKER_02]: and then they raised their children.

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, and they have one of the best public school systems in the country.

[00:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So, you know, the joke when, from a real estate perspective is always like, what's it cost to move into Highland Park versus what does it cost to send your kids to private school?

[00:05:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And three kids is the, is the number where it makes a difference if you want.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: If you want public education and you're running the math, three kids in private school versus moving to Highland Park is sort of the ratio there.

[00:06:03] [SPEAKER_01]: But you bring up something about this police blotter. I have a question for you.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_01]: If your name or house was published for having the police called for some reason, what would it be?

[00:06:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Like now.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: No. Like what would be the thing that they would publish?

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd probably screaming at the kids.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Or they're screaming back.

[00:06:22] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a screaming match.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_00]: There's something like that.

[00:06:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know. It's happening to the screen match going on.

[00:06:25] [SPEAKER_02]: There's loud noise.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:06:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:06:28] [SPEAKER_02]: And me, well, I think your children are so beautiful and well behaved.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't even imagine that.

[00:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: They just know where their safe zone is to let the wild behavior.

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, they know this is more scary. They know when to put on the charm.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And when they can take it off.

[00:06:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I could see.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, be quite mom and dad have unconditional love.

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So they can do that at home.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: What about you, Mel? What would it be?

[00:06:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, I am definitely gentrified the abrahood, but a very adjacent to non-gentrified neighborhoods.

[00:06:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And so there's, you know, random like crimes in the neighborhood.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Like people crimes of opportunity, like opening up a car door.

[00:07:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Or like if you don't lock your car door,

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I have, you know, you might see somebody who's gone in and got in your change out of the car before that.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: And a few of my neighbors have had plant stolen off their front porch.

[00:07:20] [SPEAKER_02]: So nothing super serious, but you know, I could see that would be where we would come in.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I think we would get an always complaint about the dogs.

[00:07:29] [SPEAKER_01]: If you like to AM, they let their dogs out.

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_01]: They couldn't get them to come back inside and they're barking.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And bark.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_01]: All right. Well, I digress.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Sometimes I do.

[00:07:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So for the sake of this story, let's go back to Highland Park.

[00:07:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, we were talking about when it was incorporated.

[00:07:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But our story takes place in the early 1980s.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And if you're thinking about 1980s Dallas, we have E.D. Burkell and the new Behemians,

[00:07:54] [SPEAKER_01]: they were tearing up the Dallas music scene with love like we do.

[00:07:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And the TV show Dallas was in its prime.

[00:08:00] [SPEAKER_01]: According to author Nancy Smith, the 1980s is when Dallas became the quote,

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: third post between Hollywood and New York.

[00:08:07] [SPEAKER_01]: She wrote President Ronald Reagan said America is too great for small dreams.

[00:08:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And Dallas was inspired to reach out globally.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The 1980s decade was a phenomenon when patriotism and prosperity

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: and Hollywood and Broadway converged,

[00:08:20] [SPEAKER_01]: bringing to Dallas such celebrities as Elizabeth Taylor, Michael Jackson, Frank Sinatra,

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: French Charles Robert Redford, Jack Limen, Liza Manelli, Shirley McLean,

[00:08:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Lena Turner, Rita Hayworth, and hundreds more.

[00:08:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Leading to the Republican convention in 1984, Dallas streamlined the city with a dozen new skyscrapers,

[00:08:39] [SPEAKER_01]: founded the arts district, presented dazzling benefit gallas and was recognized as a center of luxury.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: The flair of visiting stars in real-t was a catalyst that helped changed a medium-sized Texas town

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_01]: into a model of the Reagan ideal shining city.

[00:08:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's a lovely little history of Dallas lesson, it's super pretty.

[00:09:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And I do think she's right, like the 80s is when Dallas sort of became its city and its own right.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I think that's when I mean in line with the TV show Dallas,

[00:09:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that was when Dallas really came in the national stage.

[00:09:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Have you all seen all the articles calling Dallas the new yall street?

[00:09:20] [SPEAKER_01]: No, what?

[00:09:22] [SPEAKER_01]: So so many financial companies are moving here now,

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: then instead of Wall Street, they're calling us yall street, I love it.

[00:09:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that too.

[00:09:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Melanie's rolling her eyes at it, she does not love it.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I feel like everyone in Texas and Dallas in particular is always trying to

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_02]: just take a claim for ourselves on the national stage.

[00:09:43] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, I feel like we're there.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think we have to stay dark.

[00:09:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, oh my gosh, she also has its sea bellies eyes as she's rolling in.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: She's like, I have lived English places.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was born up to buy.

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, sure.

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_00]: On a gold throne.

[00:10:01] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, gals, well, our story today starts in the shiniest of neighborhoods in Dallas

[00:10:05] [SPEAKER_01]: where Sandra and Bobby Bridewell met in married.

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_01]: The two married in 1978, and their relationship launch Sandra into Dallas High Society.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Bobby was already well known and well-liked and he ran in very posh circles.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Being friends with the Uberwellty and Uber Elite in Dallas, he was also very much friends

[00:10:25] [SPEAKER_01]: with Hunt who you mentioned earlier.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, so our listeners are probably most likely to recognize him as the developer behind

[00:10:34] [SPEAKER_01]: the mansion on Turtle Creek, which to this day is the epitome of Dallas luxury hotel.

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: He took what was an original mansion on that site and he turned the original mansion into a dining room

[00:10:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and bar, and then he built a modern hotel on the other side of the building.

[00:10:52] [SPEAKER_01]: The mansion eventually became the first rosewood property in Dallas and to this day,

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: the mansion bar is the place to see and be seen.

[00:11:01] [SPEAKER_01]: I have a good girlfriend who lives in what a real estate agent now called Mansion Park.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like the little neighborhood that's grown up around the mansion.

[00:11:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, that's not a real name.

[00:11:11] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just how real estate people refer to it.

[00:11:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But because I used to drive by at a decent bit when I was taking my sense to the school that we all met at

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and so I would drive by that a lot.

[00:11:23] [SPEAKER_02]: And I was like, who lives here?

[00:11:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Like right next to the mansion on Turtle Creek.

[00:11:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, people do.

[00:11:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And so I would meet her quite a bit for just like happy hour over there.

[00:11:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, it's a really fun place if you're in Dallas and haven't been recently, you should go.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But let's get back to Sandra and Bobby.

[00:11:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Bobby was not Sandra's first husband.

[00:11:42] [SPEAKER_01]: 11 years earlier, she had married David Seagull who was a young dentist and he was intent

[00:11:48] [SPEAKER_01]: on bringing cosmetic dentistry to Dallas.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And even this marriage could be considered upwardly mobile for Sandra.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You see, she grew up very middle class in South Dallas in the Oak Cliff neighborhood where she was raised by her father and stepmother

[00:12:02] [SPEAKER_01]: as her mother died when she was really young.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: She graduated from Kimble High School in 1962 and supposedly had a pretty troubled relationship with her parents.

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Her high school career was just unremarkable.

[00:12:15] [SPEAKER_01]: She was an involved in school activities, she didn't really date.

[00:12:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And her friends would later be really surprised by the changes that her life would bring.

[00:12:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So after a year of junior college, Sandra was back in Dallas living in the Windsor house apartments on Upper Greenville Avenue.

[00:12:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And apparently she was really beautiful but even more important for her social mobility goals.

[00:12:35] [SPEAKER_01]: She was refined.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Her friend from that time Kathy Woodson was quoted in a D magazine article as saying,

[00:12:42] [SPEAKER_01]: she was the sort of southern bell who had come out of nowhere.

[00:12:45] [SPEAKER_01]: She had these real sweet manners and she knew how to make flaming plum pudding.

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we were talking movie magazines and she was talking southern living.

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She instinctively knew what men would want.

[00:12:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't sound like compliment to me.

[00:13:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I think it...

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I think she probably meant it as a compliment with our lenses.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That's not a compliment.

[00:13:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean what's the old adage?

[00:13:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, the way to a man's heart is through a stomach.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe her flaming plum pudding was like the thing that men loved.

[00:13:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I kind of want to look up a recipe for flaming plum pudding.

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I bet you have a recipe.

[00:13:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I live your 100,000 ideas of people.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll go home and all look.

[00:13:28] [SPEAKER_00]: All right, I love it.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: What's your equal to her plum pudding recipe?

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You have something like that that you grew up eating and know how to make for John.

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm not the cook at our house.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Right, right.

[00:13:37] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not the cook at our house.

[00:13:39] [SPEAKER_01]: If I were going to cook something for John,

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I did make lasagna from scratch when we were dating.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But growing up, we made plum baby food cake,

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_01]: which is like this...

[00:13:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Think of it as a loaf.

[00:13:53] [SPEAKER_01]: That is made moist by plum baby food.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: That's like the...

[00:13:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That looks liquid.

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't sound good to me at all.

[00:14:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's amazing.

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It looks like a spice cake.

[00:14:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I've made cakes with apple sauce before.

[00:14:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It's probably very much like an apple sauce cake.

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: You cannot find plum baby food anymore.

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I have looked.

[00:14:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I guess you could do that with any bread to make it with any baby food.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I true.

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Plooned.

[00:14:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that is good.

[00:14:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, you guys are getting plum baby food.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Food cake for Christmas this year.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: All right.

[00:14:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, all of this reading Southern Living really worked for Sandra.

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_01]: She quickly met the young dental student David Seagull,

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_01]: who lived across the street from her.

[00:14:38] [SPEAKER_01]: And like I said, they married in May of 1967.

[00:14:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, David was from Fort Worth,

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and he was following in his father's footsteps as a dentist.

[00:14:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Both David and Sandra had an eye for the finer things in life,

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: and they were both really ambitious.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: David's goal was to become a high society dentist and Dallas,

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and he quickly set off on that path.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: He had studied with an LA dentist to Hollywood celebrities,

[00:15:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and then he opened a practice in Dallas focused on full dental reconstruction.

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I love that.

[00:15:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, and I mean, this is like 1980s.

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. That's my nearing very much.

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's funny.

[00:15:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that he came from Fort Worth from a family of a dentist

[00:15:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to come to Dallas knowing like there's something going on here.

[00:15:17] [SPEAKER_00]: They're going to want pretty teeth.

[00:15:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You don't know what it's practice before.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Right.

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_00]: You just like, I know.

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_00]: 45 minutes that way.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_00]: All my dreams will come true.

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, okay, so I'll let it not to spoil the story.

[00:15:31] [SPEAKER_01]: But all his dreams do not come true.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: How ever Sandra was a pretty great partner at least

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: at the get go because it's accomplishes he was in the dental world.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't really socially skilled.

[00:15:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we see this a lot in power couples, right?

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You have the one person who's really good at what they do,

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: and then you have the person that's good at connecting them with the people.

[00:15:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm, who knows too.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:15:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Some make sense?

[00:15:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah?

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: What?

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Oppost a track, right?

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:15:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That's right.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, she's sort of helping him by playing the role of like the perfect doctor's wife

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: and she helps him break into Dallas society.

[00:16:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And so in 1973, they moved into the Greenway Parks neighborhood of Dallas,

[00:16:14] [SPEAKER_01]: which is I would actually say that that's like between our neighborhood

[00:16:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and Highland Park, it's sort of a buffer in between the two.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's really a lovely neighborhood with old trees.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And it will feature more a little later in the story.

[00:16:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But Greenway Parks was designed in 1927 to be the first pedestrian oriented neighborhood in Dallas

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: with its unique park-like setting.

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: So the Seagulls were moving on up and they were spending money out of control.

[00:16:41] [SPEAKER_01]: That's never good sign.

[00:16:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, David was doing really well in his dental practice.

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_01]: His income just wasn't keeping up.

[00:16:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Sandra paid an interior designer $33,000.

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Now remember we are in 1973.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_01]: She paid an interior designer $33,000 to furnish the home and antiques.

[00:17:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But meanwhile, the IRS had a lean on their home.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_00]: Nice.

[00:17:05] [SPEAKER_01]: The stress was piling on David and his work showed it.

[00:17:08] [SPEAKER_01]: He borrowed $100,000 from his father and started seeing a psychiatrist.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean that's a lot of money.

[00:17:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Nowadays can you imagine in the early 80s how much that was?

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Now Sandra and David had three kids together but despite their beautiful home and their beautiful children,

[00:17:26] [SPEAKER_01]: the marriage was really rocky and they were constantly fighting.

[00:17:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Unfortunately in February of 1975, David was found shot death

[00:17:35] [SPEAKER_01]: and a parent suicide in their home.

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_01]: The insurance payouts from David's death along with selling the house allowed Sandra to get out of debt.

[00:17:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And it seems that everyone believes that David's death was truly a suicide.

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But it looks suspect that Sandra called the insurance company prior to his death

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_01]: to see if the insurance would still pay out if he died as a result of suicide.

[00:17:59] [SPEAKER_01]: And it did.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So with three kids under the age of seven and no career of her own, Sandra quickly looked

[00:18:05] [SPEAKER_01]: at friends to introduce her to men.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_01]: She was on the hunt for husband number two.

[00:18:10] [SPEAKER_01]: She started dating the who's who single rich Dallas man including Norman Brinker,

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_01]: the founder of Staken Ail, who also established the fast casual chains like

[00:18:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Chilies and thinniggins, I love Achilles.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But alas she didn't marry Norman Brinker, she actually met and married

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Bobby Bridal.

[00:18:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, Bobby was the son of a rich East Texas oil man who came to Dallas to make his fortune

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_01]: in real estate development.

[00:18:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And Bobby sounded fun.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_01]: He was the life of the party and very popular with the Dallas high society crowd

[00:18:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and Sandra modeled herself to fit what she thought he needed.

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Knowing that he loved race horse-seeing, she studied up on it and her efforts

[00:18:45] [SPEAKER_01]: to lure him.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_01]: After they were married in 1978, he actually adopted her three children.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: He sounds great.

[00:18:52] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, he actually sounds like a pretty nice guy.

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, like he had a lot of good friends and was well loved.

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_02]: He was known for being a lot of fun.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_02]: But I mean, he would go dancing and like jazz clubs kind of back in the day

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_02]: like when it wasn't as normal to, you know, he just sounded like a good guy.

[00:19:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I totally agree.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: But unfortunately, he was diagnosed with lymphoma only two years after they got married

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: in 1980.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Bobby's friends who had previously liked Sandra turned on her.

[00:19:20] [SPEAKER_01]: A common dig was that as Haley died in their Highland Park home.

[00:19:23] [SPEAKER_01]: She was remodeling.

[00:19:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they really just felt like she was in it for what she could get out of him

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_01]: and you know, this is not a better or worse kind of situation that she was in

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_01]: when it got worse.

[00:19:36] [SPEAKER_01]: She was not there and she was not the supportive right else.

[00:19:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, she was only there for the better.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:19:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:19:43] [SPEAKER_01]: My friend was quoted in that same demagazine article we talked about earlier saying

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_01]: that winter before he died, the heat didn't work in their home.

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And here was Sandra redoing her garden room in the wallpaper and what have you.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_01]: So I brought over some spare electric heaters and a down comfort verb to make

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Bobby feel more comfortable.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And Sandra wasn't appreciative of the down comfort verb because it didn't look pretty enough.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Some of this probably was just mean gossip, but it goes to show that is quickly

[00:20:09] [SPEAKER_01]: as she broke into the Highland Park crowd.

[00:20:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She was already being forced out.

[00:20:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So while Sandra was remodeling the house on Lorraine Avenue,

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Bobby was dying of lymphoma and he moved first to a friend's house.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And then his father got really fed up that you know, he didn't have this permanent

[00:20:26] [SPEAKER_01]: place to say.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And so his father moved him into one of his hotels before he finally died in May of 1982.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I just think that's so sad that he couldn't die at home and comfortable with like the

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: support of those around him.

[00:20:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's awful.

[00:20:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, yeah.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_02]: This is one of the, this was when I reading the story started, you know,

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_02]: turning a little bit because you know, with his the first has been to me.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, maybe the husband had mental illness.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, they were young.

[00:20:56] [SPEAKER_02]: They were spending money.

[00:20:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Did all of that sort of understandable this not so understandable.

[00:21:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm 100% with email and I think everybody in the neighborhood was too because the

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: ostracism of Sandra really picked up steam after Bobby's funeral.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, Highland Park, like we said, it's a small close-knit community

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and those that lived there after referred to it as the bubble.

[00:21:19] [SPEAKER_01]: As quickly as they had accepted Sandra as Bobby's wife and invited her into their homes and lives,

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_01]: they quickly cut her back out.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I would totally be hard to be friends with someone who didn't care for their dying has been.

[00:21:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you just have to think like what even basic level of humanity do we share if that's right?

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah, totally.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_01]: So during this difficult time for Sandra, her one set a friends were the bad wells.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Bagwell was actually Bobby's doctor and Sandra became close to him in his wife Betsy during Bobby's illness.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Only two months after Bobby died, Betsy Bagwell was found shot to death in her car at Lovefield Airport here in Dallas.

[00:22:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Sandra had been the last person to see Betsy alive.

[00:22:04] [SPEAKER_01]: While Dallas police investigated Betsy's death and rolled it to suicide, friends were unconvinced and blamed

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Sandra.

[00:22:09] [SPEAKER_01]: According to an article in the Dallas Observer, the mother of two had been found shot in the head in her Mercedes-Benz parked at Lovefield after a day of ferry in Sandra,

[00:22:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Bradwell around.

[00:22:22] [SPEAKER_01]: They speculated that Bradwell, whose second husband had died of cancer, was after Dr. John Bagwell, his oncologist and Betsy's husband.

[00:22:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Death seemed to follow Sandra, Bradwell.

[00:22:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Stephanie's suspicious.

[00:22:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and like what are the chances that so many people associated with one person end up dead in a similar fashion?

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Because her first has been died of suicide and now Betsy presumably died of suicide.

[00:22:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, me.

[00:22:54] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, obviously things happened, but it does seem like a lot of bad luck.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:23:02] [SPEAKER_00]: And at the airport, that's weird.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was weird when I read about it because it literally was that she was a Sandra Bradwell apparently like needed a ride and so she asked her friend to like, you know, be like me asking, can you help me run on Bencha errands?

[00:23:18] [SPEAKER_02]: And now you're going to, oh okay now this is the time I'm going to choose.

[00:23:24] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so I'm going to pause right here in the story for a quick recap because things are about to get even greater.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have David, he's Sandra's first husband. He died of suicide. He was found at home.

[00:23:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have Bobby that Sandra's second husband. He died of cancer.

[00:23:40] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have Betsy, Sandra's friend who died of suicide and she was found in her car in the airport parking lot.

[00:23:47] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, so we're all in the same place. Yes, and the three kids are from David. That's correct.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So after Bobby's death, Sandra and her kids still had their newly remodeled large home on the rain Avenue in Highland Park.

[00:24:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And you know, this is prime real estate recently a new home on the rain Avenue sold for just over $9 million.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So it was a perfect place for her to live while looking for husband number three of course.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: So in June of 1984 two years after Bobby died, Sandra met 29 year old Alan Ray.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to just say a side note here. His last name is built REHRIG and I may be mispronouncing that so if I am, I really apologize.

[00:24:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But Alan is different from Sandra's previous husbands. He's a former Oklahoma state college basketball star who had just moved to Dallas from Oklahoma.

[00:24:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And when I say just, I mean, just he literally moved to Dallas the day before he met Sandra.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So a guy at Allen's office suggested that he look for a garage apartment for rent in Highland Park.

[00:24:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And that's Heliment.

[00:24:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Meiner, and she was actually standing in her front yard when he drove by and so Alan pulls over to chat with her and ask if she knows anyone with a garage apartment per rent.

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: She tells him that she isn't aware of any garage apartments but says, you know, come back in 30 minutes and I'll show you around the neighborhood.

[00:25:07] [SPEAKER_01]: So he drives away in his Bronco and he sees somebody else out and he pulls over and asks her the same question.

[00:25:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And she says to him, young man, you should stay away from her.

[00:25:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Sandra was 41 at the time, but told Alan that she was 36 and not surprisingly a crazy romance ensues and the two get married.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: If I were going to lie by my age, I wouldn't take off five years.

[00:25:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, how much would you take off?

[00:25:31] [SPEAKER_00]: Ten.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, you don't want to see it?

[00:25:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I can pull it off.

[00:25:35] [SPEAKER_00]: No, okay.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_00]: The face you gave me.

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, I feel like tell her.

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's a little bit harder to do that.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_02]: But I actually recall this.

[00:25:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you remember, I mean, there was time in my life that you would drive around looking for four leaf signs.

[00:25:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, because the internet didn't exist yet.

[00:25:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, who are had not come along and solved the world's problems.

[00:26:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But you recall that like, oh, well, like, oh, people would be like, oh, they're I'm looking for a house to write.

[00:26:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm not looking for like a big apartment complex or something like that where you would go to a leasing office and you would go look around for that sign and people's backyard.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I remember the newspaper.

[00:26:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, yeah, like on Wednesdays and Sunday, I think it would come out with it with the ads for houses for sale and rent and stuff.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually just drove around this week.

[00:26:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I have a house that is probably best marketed as a lot that I was of a selling and I thought, you know, I know like 20 builders in the neighborhood.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But I bet there are some new people that I don't have their information yet.

[00:26:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So I spent listening to a podcast not ours other podcasts.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I drove around for like an hour and a half and I had like 20 new builder names that I was like, okay, I'm going to call these guys and see if they have any interest in property.

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you just like jot down the names on like, well, I took a picture of their sign out front because it always has like a name and number.

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I was talking to another realtor friend later and he was like, we know you can just go to like the city of Dallas and pool building permits.

[00:27:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And I was like, oh, that would have been a probably more efficient is some of my time, but I enjoyed driving around.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it was in the podcast.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah, I'm very visual.

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So I could see how like looking at it and going, okay, you've got like a really cool similar lot that I've seen you done.

[00:27:24] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know, I can feel like him personalize the conversation.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I'm with you and then when I called him, I was like, hey, I saw your sign on such and such street, you know, they didn't think I was crazy because not a lot of people answer their phone anymore.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Yeah.

[00:27:39] [SPEAKER_01]: When you answer, you got to prove you're not a telemarketer real fast.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, yeah, I mean, you know, I work for a telecommunication company.

[00:27:46] [SPEAKER_02]: And so we talk off to in time about how like when we're doing outbound calls, we are lucky if maybe 3% at the time that someone answers the phone.

[00:27:58] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a crazy stat.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: I answer my phone unless it says spam risk.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, but you're also real true.

[00:28:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I feel like it would in your line both of your lines of industry where you wouldn't.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_02]: It's not unusual for you to get phone calls from phone numbers or even area codes that you're not familiar with because it could be, you know, somebody gave them your number.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. I always Google this past as I can.

[00:28:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Who's an emergency number? Oh, you look at the number.

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I tried to like while it's coming in.

[00:28:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So a standard of lines and dines, the good looking young Alan, she dazzles him with fabric season ticket, spancy blites and by taking him to the mansion on her quick,

[00:28:38] [SPEAKER_01]: where they marry only six months after meaning, do you all think it's in bad taste that they got the they got married?

[00:28:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess they didn't get remarried but at Bobby's hotel.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's really bad.

[00:28:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't like that at all.

[00:28:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's just tacky right?

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I have everywhere that right there.

[00:28:55] [SPEAKER_01]: But she wanted to be like fancy and important and that's the place to be.

[00:29:01] [SPEAKER_01]: But just I don't know.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It seems so disrespectful to Bobby.

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, especially their friends are starting to turn her way from her and doing that.

[00:29:10] [SPEAKER_00]: I feel like it's like a big FU to do.

[00:29:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree. Oh, I agree.

[00:29:13] [SPEAKER_02]: That's a good description.

[00:29:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So unfortunately for Alan, everything in Sandra's life is not quite as stable and glamorous as she made it same.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: The Lorraine Avenue home was heavily mortgage and Sandra was relying on Gibson loans and credit card debt to get by.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And a move that further ostracized Sandra in the tightly knit Highland Park community.

[00:29:34] [SPEAKER_01]: She would ask Mary, men to co-sign loans for her and or to borrow money.

[00:29:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And when they would ask for repayment, she would politely suggest that they talked to their wife about the repayment plan and then get back to her.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And short, she never intended to pay these men back and she used the looks and charm at her disposal to finance her lifestyle.

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like that she did that but it's kind of bad ass a little bit.

[00:29:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't like that she behaved that way but it's kind of like it worked.

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_00]: They weren't they weren't doing right by their wives.

[00:30:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, this is that's true. That's true.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_00]: So I don't like it. However, what is it?

[00:30:12] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't hate the player. He'd think yeah, that.

[00:30:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, all right. We're going to just move on.

[00:30:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So after Sandra and Alan get married, she tells him she's pregnant.

[00:30:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And she suggests that they sell their house and buy something else.

[00:30:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So they moved to a duplex on Asbury Avenue.

[00:30:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Now I should pause here and say, that was another one of the things she would use with the married men.

[00:30:33] [SPEAKER_01]: She would tell them she was pregnant. She would ask for money for the baby or an abortion or whatever she was going to ask for money for.

[00:30:41] [SPEAKER_01]: But she actually was not able to have children at this point.

[00:30:44] [SPEAKER_02]: And her life interest, she had had a hysterectomy soon after her third child.

[00:30:50] [SPEAKER_02]: So which is crazy and retrospect with how many men later on admit to the fact that she mentioned maybe being pregnant.

[00:30:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, so they moved to this duplex on Asbury Avenue.

[00:31:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And let me be very clear.

[00:31:02] [SPEAKER_01]: A duplex on Asbury is also prime real estate.

[00:31:05] [SPEAKER_01]: It's in close proximity to southern Methodist University.

[00:31:08] [SPEAKER_01]: And still sort of within that bubble that we call the park cities.

[00:31:11] [SPEAKER_01]: But something like this today would sell for around $2 million.

[00:31:16] [SPEAKER_01]: So you know a significant move for the couple who a house on the right Avenue like we said just sold for over 9 million.

[00:31:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Not surprisingly, this marriage is pretty stressful.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Sandra is a shopaholic who takes out credit cards and Allen's name and then just runs them up.

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And so six months after the wedding he moves out of their house.

[00:31:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And then on December 7th, 1985, just a few days before their one year wedding anniversary,

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_01]: he goes to meet Sandra at a storage unit that the two share.

[00:31:43] [SPEAKER_01]: She tells him that she needs some help moving some items and then he relays that to friends of his like hey, this is where I'm going to be.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You know how it is like when you're going through it abortion like oh my god, I got to meet the ex to do this that or the other right.

[00:31:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I read that he was saying that he was a little nervous to see her because he hadn't seen her in person and loved before this.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, okay, that's good information.

[00:32:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And so this is unfortunately the last time he has seen alive four days later, he has found dead shot multiple times in a secluded location in Oklahoma City in his Bronco.

[00:32:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Please think that he was shot in Dallas and then the car was driven to this like off site airport parking in Oklahoma City another airport.

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Another airport and another shooting in a car in an airport parking lot.

[00:32:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And so the police obviously questioned Sandra about his death as they would with like any spouse in a situation like this.

[00:32:42] [SPEAKER_01]: But Sandra used her children as her alibi and she did not give police permission to interview them.

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I actually asked my husband about this and I was like is that allowed can you ask the police or tell the police they can't interview your children.

[00:32:56] [SPEAKER_01]: This is not exactly his answer, but his answer was like it's real gray essentially like there are there are laws and then there are policies and then.

[00:33:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Right, yeah.

[00:33:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, and I did a lot of googling and I couldn't find like a clear answer on that either.

[00:33:12] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm sure all anybody any attorney listening to us is like oh, there's obviously a clear answer you guys are wrong, but I think it's weird that you can just tell the police like no you can't interview my children.

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I agree.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But that is you and think they could interview anybody they want as long as they follow like proper procedure right that's what I would think too.

[00:33:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, according to the author John Lee who grew up on Lorraine Avenue at the same time that Sandra lived there and recently wrote a book about this story called The Meaning of Malice.

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Sandra told the Oklahoma City homicide detectives that her estranged judge has been was hanging around with gambling bookies and she suspected him of having an addiction to cocaine.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: There's no motive for her.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, there is a haven't gotten to it.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay, okay.

[00:33:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, what's her motive? You know what her motive is? It's money.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: That's all she has.

[00:34:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, but he had a life insurance policy.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, sorry.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Okay, I'm sure.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm sure I got it.

[00:34:05] [SPEAKER_02]: And they had only been married a year and have been separated for six months, but yeah, there's no life insurance.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Correct.

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_01]: And he was 29 when they got married.

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, after Allen's death, Sandra gave one interview and one interview only to Susan Allbreck at the Park City's People.

[00:34:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And then she hired defense attorneys in both Oklahoma City and Dallas to represent her.

[00:34:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Allen?

[00:34:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Do you laugh the Park City's people as where she's different the other?

[00:34:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, it's her local like newspaper, you know?

[00:34:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean, it's a very respectable publication on a smaller scale.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Absolutely.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And I've read it many times.

[00:34:47] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no fault, knocking on it.

[00:34:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's like a community, like a small community newspaper.

[00:34:53] [SPEAKER_02]: It sounds like hard hitting news.

[00:34:55] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's not the, yeah, they do not probably get a lot of murder interviews in it.

[00:34:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, this is not the Dallas morning news.

[00:35:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, know you're right.

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And so like I was saying before to Sandra gives this interview to Susan Allbreck,

[00:35:10] [SPEAKER_01]: it's the only interview she gives.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And then she hired these defense attorneys and it's essentially like they're acting as a liaison

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: so that you know, there aren't a lot of interviews or the interviews are very attorney-driven, right?

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, so she's not doing a lot of interviews with the police at this point.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And so fast forward a little bit, Allen's mom tried to get Sandra removed as the executor of Allen's estate

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and she suggested that one of his cousins be the executor instead.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And the courts agreed with her.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And 10 days after Allen's cousin was made executor of his estate he was found dead, shot to death,

[00:35:47] [SPEAKER_01]: in his car, along with the suicide note.

[00:35:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Now the Dallas police declared it a suicide but the FBI got involved at this point.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: There were some particulars of the crime scene that made them suspicious that this was a murder and not a suicide.

[00:36:03] [SPEAKER_01]: In particular, a rifle was used instead of a handgun.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And look, the physics of shooting yourself with a rifle are not impossible but they are much harder to achieve than using a smaller gun.

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: The rifle that was used had just been gifted to his son, which investigators thought was odd.

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And then when the police found him he was wearing his seatbelt and his hands were found in his lap.

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Investigators wondered if they had been moved by paramedics and if not, how they got back to his lap after he pulled the trigger.

[00:36:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Also while wearing a seatbelt, why would you wear a seatbelt?

[00:36:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You're about to kill yourself while you were at the safety of the car you driving.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And also Kurt Gobin killed himself with a rifle.

[00:36:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh did he? I did not know that.

[00:36:45] [SPEAKER_00]: They speculate that he pulled the trigger with his toe.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh yeah.

[00:36:49] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a little interesting piece of information.

[00:36:51] [SPEAKER_01]: You're also not impossible, like I said, but much harder.

[00:36:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So now we have three dead husbands, one dead friend, and a dead cousin of a husband.

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Three suicides.

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: One, two, three suicide.

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: One cancer.

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_01]: He has been number one with suicide, but we think probably that was really suicide.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And then there was friend who was suicide.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Two suicides.

[00:37:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And then husband number three was suicide.

[00:37:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then cousin was suicide.

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_01]: So we actually have four suicides on one cancer.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, got it.

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Wait, then that's not enough dead husbands.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_01]: But there was the cousin.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh right, yes, yes.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, yes.

[00:37:45] [SPEAKER_02]: And one friend, one cousin.

[00:37:48] [SPEAKER_02]: cousin, never has.

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, okay, thank you.

[00:37:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I mean it's a lot.

[00:37:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And all of this equal to much scandal for Sandra to overcome in Highland Park.

[00:37:57] [SPEAKER_01]: So using the $220,000 life insurance policy on Allen,

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_01]: she leaves Dallas for Fancy Marin County just north of San Francisco,

[00:38:06] [SPEAKER_01]: where she rents an expensive home, filled again with antiques,

[00:38:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and roles her daughters into an exclusive private school

[00:38:12] [SPEAKER_01]: and settles down into relative obscurity for a while.

[00:38:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So while Sandra drops off the radar of the Dallas High Society,

[00:38:21] [SPEAKER_01]: her story doesn't really end.

[00:38:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And California, she continued her pursuit of wealthy men in a

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_01]: allegedly borrowed $100,000 from two different men that she did not pay back.

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_01]: She dated Richmond and the area and exuded a southern bell air that was

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_01]: interesting to the California elite where she had made many friends.

[00:38:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Eventually her friends found out about her reputation and press articles

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_01]: and Dallas called her the black widow.

[00:38:47] [SPEAKER_02]: I read that some of her friends started passing around because she was featured

[00:38:53] [SPEAKER_02]: in some of the Dallas newspaper magazines.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, you're always one person separated from someone else and it got around.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, you're absolutely right.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_01]: On July 12, 1989, the San Francisco Chronicle published a story called

[00:39:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Mystery in Marin discussing Sandra and her history.

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_01]: After that article ran, her story was picked up by tabloids like the globe

[00:39:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and TV shows like Haraldo, Inside Edition and Current Affair.

[00:39:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And you're just passed away or am I making that up as that's a video?

[00:39:23] [SPEAKER_01]: No, he's still alive.

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I could have swear he just died.

[00:39:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd like to still a TV.

[00:39:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe it was somebody else, sorry.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_01]: It wasn't Haraldo, it was Phil Donahue.

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, okay, sorry.

[00:39:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Anyway, we digress.

[00:39:37] [SPEAKER_01]: And stories of Sandra continued over the years and sightings of her from Hawaii

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to Massachusetts Highlight how her story continued and wealthy enclaves as she

[00:39:46] [SPEAKER_01]: continued to seduce men for many.

[00:39:49] [SPEAKER_01]: They're her late 40s.

[00:39:50] [SPEAKER_01]: She often used stories of pregnancy with men to secure their money even though she

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: like we had said had had a historic to me prior to Marion Allen.

[00:39:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But good looks in charm can only last so long and for a while, Sandra sort of

[00:40:02] [SPEAKER_01]: falls off the radar.

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_01]: That is until she transformed herself into a new persona designed to weave her way into

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_01]: people's lives.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, good looks in charm don't last.

[00:40:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, your charms can last forever, but the good looks only go so far.

[00:40:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, you're going to be beautiful for another, I don't know five years.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I thought I was going to pass for 35, but Heather says,

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: no, so what's the, that new study came out that you age at 44 and 66?

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:40:34] [SPEAKER_01]: This is like in the last week or two.

[00:40:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Wait, we'll post a soap article.

[00:40:38] [SPEAKER_00]: We'll look 44 until we're 64.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_01]: I was fed that line.

[00:40:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I just put it in the headline.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't read the, okay.

[00:40:45] [SPEAKER_01]: But what I, what I took away from it was like crap, I've got one more year before

[00:40:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I age a lot.

[00:40:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh.

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Now let me give it to the middle finger.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It's fine.

[00:40:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Okay.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So y'all, Sandra, back to Sandra.

[00:41:00] [SPEAKER_01]: In 2004, a Dallas Observer article titled The Return of the Black Widow.

[00:41:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Highlighted, how Sandra was living in a friend's condo in Atlanta after having met

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_01]: her at a religious conference.

[00:41:12] [SPEAKER_01]: She had introduced herself as Camille, which is her middle name to be fair.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: And said she was a missionary who had just returned from eight years to

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: her bed.

[00:41:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Eight years distributing Christian tracks in Pakistan and needed a place to stay.

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It worked until this friend started to investigate who was actually living with her and had

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_01]: some questions, but apparently the role as a Christian missionary became her retirement plan

[00:41:36] [SPEAKER_01]: for tricking people to help her finance her lifestyle.

[00:41:39] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's smart.

[00:41:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Who would question that?

[00:41:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, obviously that friend did.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_01]: But also like if you're a Christian missionary, you're not used to living this lavish

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_01]: lifestyle.

[00:41:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And so if you're doing it to get money to then go out and be fancy, that seems like

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_01]: a disconnect.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Clever.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And so by 2007, she is finally arrested for the first time in North Carolina for

[00:42:08] [SPEAKER_01]: forgery and defrauding an elderly woman.

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And so in a article with the people newspapers about his new book, The Meaning

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_01]: and Malice, on the trail, the Black Widow of Highland Park, John Leak set out to investigate

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_01]: each of the deaths associated with Sandra and prove whether or not she was involved in those

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: deaths.

[00:42:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He says I really started examining it closely in 2007 when Sandra was arrested in North Carolina,

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_01]: not from herder but for aggravated identity theft.

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_01]: That's the first time she ever got caught for anything, but the pattern of conduct is the

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_01]: same.

[00:42:44] [SPEAKER_01]: After moving on to other true crime books such as cold a long time in 2012, he returned

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_01]: to the story with renewed vigor in 2019.

[00:42:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Hit took me this much time because I wanted to get access to all known information,

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_01]: a law enforcement stuff, Alpharinsic stuff, photos, everything, like said, but what I

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_01]: discovered when researching this is there's a great reluctance in this story and I

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_01]: accounted it again and again to share information.

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_01]: A heavily redacted portion of Sandra's FBI file was of little help.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_01]: For me, it became apparent that the totality of circumstances.

[00:43:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm not saying there's one single smoking gun leads me to believe that she is an undetected

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_01]: serial killer.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So what do y'all think?

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, do you think is it possible that she has just cursed with bad luck wherever she

[00:43:36] [SPEAKER_01]: turns or like karma, maybe she's karma?

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Or is she responsible for some or all of these deaths?

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it's a bad luck.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I think she's probably is responsible for some or all of these deaths.

[00:43:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I'd be more inclined to say it was bad luck if we did not see the pattern after her last

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_02]: apparent marriage that she was still defrauding men along the way and then eventually defrauding

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_02]: people.

[00:44:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Like she was kind of like living in their homes, saying that she was going to prayer meetings,

[00:44:16] [SPEAKER_02]: et cetera, it just seems like a long pattern.

[00:44:20] [SPEAKER_02]: If she had gotten a normal 9 to 5 job and tried to work, it'd be one thing but she

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_02]: honestly seems to have been naughty, at least later on.

[00:44:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah so I agree with both of you.

[00:44:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I think she was, I don't know that she was responsible for all of them.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I think you know, we were talking offline and there's a lot of evidence that maybe first

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_01]: husband that really was a suicide and second husband certainly died of cancer.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't think there's any doubt of that but after that I think maybe she recognized

[00:44:56] [SPEAKER_01]: how much you can do with life insurance proceeds and you know how easy it was to remove people

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01]: from a situation to change a situation.

[00:45:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah she had been very fortunate with some of her life insurance proceeds the long way.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So you know today's crime estate was a little different.

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_01]: We looked at the impact of a crime on a community and you know sort of what happens when a community

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_01]: ostracizes someone as a result of a crime.

[00:45:22] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't focus on a particular property necessarily but you know sort of as John Leak was saying

[00:45:32] [SPEAKER_01]: many people believe that because of the culture of the community in particular in Highland Park,

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_01]: you know people believed in being discreet that these crimes were a little bit harder to investigate

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_01]: than they might have otherwise been if people were very open.

[00:45:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So I don't know what do you think just about sort of the community that surrounds a crime and how

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_01]: people respond to a crime in a community. We can't really ask ourselves are usual question,

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_01]: would you live there or would you list it as it pertains to a house where a crime occurred I guess but

[00:46:11] [SPEAKER_01]: would you live in the house that Sandra and Bobby lived in? Do you think?

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Bobby is the first husband? Bobby's the second husband the die cancer. Yes.

[00:46:21] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay, the one on Lorraine Avenue. Yes because it wasn't it was a natural I probably do live in

[00:46:27] [SPEAKER_01]: a house that someone can live in. When he didn't pass away in a house because you're never

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_02]: she moved to the hotel. I mean we were definitely live there because now it's fully remodeled.

[00:46:36] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean after all this period of time it better day and well look good.

[00:46:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah I mean I think I think I would live there. I hate that he spent the last few months of his

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_01]: life there in a way where he wasn't comfortable but I think there's some beauty to

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_01]: give in some new life and energy to a house so I'm more concerned about love field now.

[00:46:59] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean there's been a lot of like people in the park and a lot of love field. Who would it guess?

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Disgusting. I love the Southwest. That was the best. But still.

[00:47:08] [SPEAKER_01]: All right well if you all love this episode and want to take a deeper dive into the widow of

[00:47:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Highland Park we have links to the book and articles we mentioned on our website crimestate.com

[00:47:17] [SPEAKER_01]: and we've also linked to a YouTube documentary that the author of the book created.

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really pretty interesting like he uses the crime scene photos and evidence to set out to

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: prove whether or not Sandra was behind these deaths so with that we should know that we are working

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_01]: on our fall lineup of episodes and we always live your suggestions so if you have a great

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_01]: crime state idea you can email us at crimestatepodcast at gmail.com that's right we love

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