72 - Closing the Doors: The Legacy of Neiman Marcus

[00:00:05] At the intersection of true crime and real estate, you'll find Crime Estate. I'm Heather. And my name is Elena. As real estate agents and true crime junkies, we view crimes through a different lens. So walk through the door of some of the most notorious true crimes with us and discover how sometimes the scene of the crime has its own story to tell. Hey y'all, well we have a bit of a different story for you today. And I really hope you

[00:00:33] love it because it tells the story of several iconic Dallas properties that hold a special place in Dallas history and I think tell the story of how Dallas sort of became the city that it is today. Plus you all are in for a little bit of a treat today because of course we are now filming this on our new YouTube channel. Yeah, at Crime Estate. Yeah, I know, very original, right? Also in for a little bit of a treat for you all, I had

[00:01:00] a boozy girls lunch today and my filter's already gone. So who knows what I'm going to say? I know, I know. It's the honest Heather. It is not the Southern prim and proper Heather. Yes, yes. A boozy lunch on a Monday. I mean, that's crazy. And what was the special occasion and I wish I could have been there? I know, I know. It did feel like super decadent. But you know, Elena and I both have jobs where

[00:01:24] we work all weekend long. So typically I do try to make Monday like my Saturday. So normally I do what all other working parents do on a Monday or on their Saturday on my Monday. I do like chores and I do grocery shopping and I pay the bills, you know, all the fun stuff. You post our podcast. I do. I post our podcast on Mondays over coffee. I love doing that. But we sort of had something

[00:01:49] interesting happen in the world of Dallas real estate this week that brought about my lunch with girlfriends today. So our listeners are probably familiar with the iconic department store Neiman Marcus. But what you might not know is that Neiman's was founded in Dallas. As a matter of fact, we're recording this episode today at my house, which was once part of the Stanley Marcus estate.

[00:02:14] Okay, that's pretty cool. You know, I think I kind of knew it was round here, but I don't think I knew that it was definitely that your home is on part of the old estate. And Stanley was the son of one of the founders. And so Herbert Marcus and who went on to run Neiman's who created Neiman's. But then Stanley was the iconic heir who went on for like, I don't know, like 50 years. That's right. Yeah.

[00:02:42] And if you're in Dallas, you may have heard about some of what's going on in Neiman's because it's been all over the news. But even if you're just one of our listeners and likes real estate and luxury goods, you might find this interesting. Yeah, you know, I think Neiman's is the iconic department store that is synonymous with Dallas. The luxury department store chain was actually founded in 1907, like Melanie said, by Herbert

[00:03:08] Marcus and his sister, Carrie Marcus Neiman, and her husband, Abraham Lincoln Neiman. Cool. Isn't that fun? Now, while today there are 43 locations of the chain, the flagship and original store is in downtown Dallas. And I want our listeners to picture the Macy's store on 34th Avenue from Miracle on 34th Street. You know, that like historic downtown building, several stories.

[00:03:36] You know, it just immediately brings to mind a picture of what I think, I think they look very similar to the Neiman's that we have downtown. And while it might be similar, it is Neiman's. So, of course, inside everything is like gold and diamonds, not like what you might find at Macy's. But I want to talk about for a second how novel of an idea this was for the early 1900s. I mean, think about what people were doing at the time, especially what was happening in Dallas at the

[00:04:06] time. It was still sort of like an oil and gas kind of city. Bankers were definitely coming in, but it was not the luxury shopping destination that it is today. And I think in large part, Neiman's was like the cultural icon that sort of made Dallas this go-to place for shopping. I mean, people come here to shop from all over the world, even today. Now, when the new wealth came into Texas,

[00:04:34] people were sort of mesmerized by like all of the high fashion and the luxury inventory within such a sophisticated store. In 1936, Edna Woman Chase, who was the editor of Vogue at the time, I love that. And also love that in 1936, a woman was the editor of Vogue. How awesome is that? She was quoted as saying, I dreamed all my life of the perfect store for women. Then I saw Neiman Marcus and my dream had come true. How cool.

[00:05:01] Isn't that awesome? Now, Herbert and his sister Carrie established the foundation of Neiman Marcus, but it really expanded, like Melanie said, in 1950 when Stanley Marcus, Herbert's son, took over the operations of the store. He introduced many of the innovations for which Neiman Marcus became known, including integrating art and luxury into the store, weekly fashion shows. I've been to a couple of fashion shows at Neiman's for charity events. It's always so much fun. And of course,

[00:05:28] the amazing Neiman Marcus Christmas catalog, which became famous for extravagant his and hers gifts, such as airplanes and camels. Great. Have y'all ever shopped at Neiman Marcus? I've been in the downtown location for Christmas and looking around, but I don't remember ever buying anything there. I've been there a lot, but that's because my office is actually catty corners, like maybe one block down

[00:05:51] from it. And so, you know, over the years, I go there for lunch a lot. Like today, I went and picked up because I knew we were going to be talking about it. So it was fresh in my mind. They have a cafe on the first floor. And so I always got to get the white chicken chili there. It's wonderful. And then I always go and spray perfume, you know, fancy. So I went and sprayed like the Baccarat Rouge, you know, perfume

[00:06:20] on there. And I've bought like makeup at the counters. And then I've bought like some jeans and, you know, a few things. But this is, there's not a huge amount of inventory at this one. It's more about like kind of the see and be seen elements of this one, of this location. I have a old boss who was a

[00:06:44] weekly regular at the Zodiac Room. And so he took me there quite a bit. And that, that was kind of fun. So I wouldn't say I've spent lots of money there, but I've definitely been there a lot. Yeah, we, I don't think I've ever purchased anything from that Neiman's. But I've definitely been for Christmas. You know, they have an amazing Santa. When our kids were little, do you remember they had these tunnels that came in and out of the front window display? And you could like ride

[00:07:14] the tunnels down and out onto the sidewalk and then go back inside to the store. I loved that. I mean, that was as close to like, you know, a Manhattan, New York Christmas, you know, window experience that I ever got in Dallas. And it was amazing. And I remember sending my kids that were like two and four at the time crawling through these tunnels. Yeah. They stopped doing the tunnels, but that was pretty awesome back then. That was very cool. And I'm like you, Melanie, I eat lunch. I don't eat lunch at the Zodiac

[00:07:42] Room regularly, but probably once a year as like a fun girls. We would actually do like a Christmas lunch there quite a bit and then go see Santa. And of course, the store is all decked out with Christmas decorations. So, but that's where I ended up for lunch today. I was at the Zodiac Room at Neiman Marcus, which is famous for its popovers with strawberry butter. Now, I read a great blog post from the Authentic Suburban Gourmet blog, which of course we have linked in our show notes.

[00:08:11] And I think she or he perfectly sums up the specialness of the Zodiac Room. She says, if you have ever had the pleasure of dining at Neiman Marcus, then you know how wonderful the popovers are when they arrive at your table. The classic strawberry butter that is served alongside just melts on each bite of the crunchy and rich popover. One of the classic starters at Neiman Marcus is the complimentary, I don't know how to say this word. I'm so embarrassed. Is it? Demi-toss? Demi-toss. Thank you.

[00:08:36] The complimentary Demi-toss cup of handmade chicken consomme with a petite puff pastry bite. The chicken flavor is out of this world and you will surely savor each sip because it comes in like a teeny tiny little, like a little espresso cup almost. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, it's kind of like the bone broth, uh, you know, before there was like the bone broth, but it was just so fancy and elegant and also random that you're basically getting a cup of broth.

[00:09:03] Yeah. So regardless of what you're ordering, when you sit down, you get a popover and then the little cup of broth. Now the author goes on to say, Mr. Stanley Marcus, or better known just as Mr. Stanley, was a greatly respected businessman who celebrated acumen and promotional intellect defined and shaped the Neiman Marcus company. He was a second generation contributor to the business with his father, Herbert Marcus, being the founder of this marquee company in 1907. Neiman Marcus is

[00:09:32] synonymous for taste, elegance, and flair. He encouraged the chefs to be creative and put a modern twist on traditional recipes. Mr. Stanley focused on the customer. Now this was, I thought, fascinating. There were a few notes that Mr. Stanley left for the foreword to the Neiman Marcus cookbook. And this is sort of like the reasons why this restaurant is so special and so successful. So here's his list. First, customers do not like to wait more than two minutes to be recognized and four

[00:10:00] minutes to be seated. So true. I agree with that. Yeah. Customers like prompt service of food, prompt service of breads, jams, and butter, and the service of a waiter one minute after being seated. I agree with that too. The manager should be able to quickly inspect a dining room to see if any food has not been eaten. Okay. So like maybe something's off. They're checking it out. We had the best service today. People were on top of it. You should offer a small dish of newly added, of something newly added

[00:10:27] to the menu without a charge. Okay. Variety. Mm-hmm. Know the customers by name and know their habits and taste preferences. I have to say this is, this is going to be the bougiest of all bougie statements and Melanie's going to give me grief for this later. But at Christmas for two years in a row, one of my favorite servers from the country club was also a server at the Zodiac Room. And when I would show up, he would bring me a complimentary glass of champagne. Aw, you don't like champagne.

[00:10:57] Well, but he didn't know that. And I drank it. I was happy to be drinking it. You like free champagne? Yeah. I do like free champagne. Well, I'll give you, I'll explain to you how bougie, and this isn't like it's the finest, fanciest restaurant, but like it is a fancy, like inside of a department store. So I told you that my old boss, he was a regular there and he is bougie of the nth

[00:11:23] degree. And so every time we went, he had a special table that they always, you know, took us to and that they knew that he, where, which chair he wanted. And we always had to wait till he sat at this chair first. And he likes black napkins with his slacks. And there, it's normally a white tablecloth type of restaurant. And so as soon as we would sit down, they would very quietly come and bring him

[00:11:51] a black, and change out his white napkin for a black napkin. I love it. The last piece of information in the forward was Mr. Stanley said they should have a prompt response to the customer's eye and head signals, especially when it comes to presenting the check. So we're talking like, be subtle, know if somebody's trying to wave you over, if somebody's like, I've got this, you know, you don't want it to be a very overt. And this is sort of a Southern or a money thing, right? When people are like,

[00:12:22] we don't want it to be obvious that somebody's paying for this. So ladies, I have a special treat for you. I totally brought you guys popovers with strawberry jam. So after we finish recording, we can go into the kitchen and have one. Sounds good to me. Sounds awesome because I was just thinking about how all this was making me hungry. Well, I think this is a great time to sort of take a break and thank the sponsor of today's show, Baller Mom Kitchen. We love her. We, you know,

[00:12:48] talk probably pretty regularly on this show about how busy we are between work and our kids and, you know, recording a podcast. And her meal delivery service, if you live in Dallas, is phenomenal. You know, she probably feeds my family three nights a week. It is always healthy food, lots of protein for growing kids. And we're just so appreciative of her being a sponsor of the show. So if you guys are like us and feeling a little overwhelmed and trying to make your lives easier, go check out

[00:13:16] ballermomkitchen.com. She is offering a great discount to our listeners. Yeah. Is it 10% for, if you plug in crime estate, two words at checkout? Yes. Yes. 10%. Crime space estate. Crime space estate. Go to ballermomkitchen.com. Place your order. She's offering 10% off anything, $50 or more. All you have to do is type in crime estate. Two words. At checkout. Now, I mentioned earlier that our house is built on what was part of the original

[00:13:42] Stanley Marcus estate. And of course, it wouldn't be crime estate if I didn't tell you guys about that amazing house. Stanley's, not mine. We've mentioned on the podcast before that we are huge fans of a local publication called Candy's Dirt. We've done our podcast before. We did. Yeah. We were so thankful to go on that. Yeah. She's, she sort of always has her pulse on Dallas real estate and has for years.

[00:14:08] And she does her own write-up of the Marcus estate. As much as I wanted to write my own, Candy just says it so perfectly that I'm going to quote what she wrote when the house went on the market in 2013. She says, I would say this about only a handful of homes. There is absolutely no other home in Dallas like 10 Nonesuch Road. Built in 1937, it has only been owned by two families,

[00:14:35] the Marcuses and the Livorns, who bought it from the retail genius in 1994. It is a home filled with history and stories of famous visitors, weddings, parties, those beyond wild Neiman Marcus fortnight signifying the epitome of a retail era we no longer know. It is also a home that reflects the evolution of our city and sophistication, as Neiman Marcus clearly put

[00:14:59] Dallas ahead of any other Texas city in terms of glamour. And 10 Nonesuch Road represents Dallas's aesthetic march toward modern architecture, which our city is known for, but it also stands for the Neiman Marcus lore. When he and his wife built it, Stanley Marcus believed that it was the very first fine contemporary home in Dallas. And it has other firsts as well. The library, for example, has a

[00:15:23] leather floor that was made of the same imported leather once used for a display wall in the Neiman Marcus shoe department. The configuration entirely Stanley Marcus's idea. The original projection booth is still in the home where he entertained the likes of Grace Kelly, James Dean, Eleanor Roosevelt, Christian Dior, Lyndon Johnson, Nelson Rockefeller, Estee Lauder, and distinguished designers from all over the world. In the same miogany wood used in the expansive,

[00:15:52] his and her master closet is there, custom built by Stanley Marcus to best preserve and house the fruits of his empire. There is the same large winding driveway for a multitude of cars and valet because the Marcus is entertained, to put it mildly, frequently, and abundantly. Once the Queen of Thailand came on a visit with Issey Miyake of Tokyo. Mel, do you know who that is? Yeah, a famous designer used to have Issey Miyake perfume.

[00:16:21] Of course you did. And Issey Miyake came with their own entourage of 30. Now there is a brand new kitchen, sleek new plumbing fixtures in all six bathrooms, and a new laundry room more reflective of a self-help age and water conservation. A circle drive off that winding driveway, a second walk-in closet in the master, and a private rooftop deck, and a catwalk to a 1200 square foot

[00:16:46] two-bedroom, two-bath guest house with kitchen. I have always wondered about the name of the street, Candy says, and of course it comes from the marketing genius of Marcus himself. Mark LaVorne tells me Stanley Marcus named the street none such. During the days of constructing his house, it took the city so long to complete the connection of Lana Road to the Lakewood area, and the Marcus property that he himself decided to call the road none such road. There are also

[00:17:13] other personal connections to the selection of this name. Along with his vast art collection, Stanley Marcus collected miniature books as a hobby and began publishing those in 1975, corresponding to the address of the residence he called this publishing activity some such press. Isn't that cute? That's super cute. Like most young affluent couples, Stanley and Billy Marcus wanted to build a home in Dallas to raise their three children.

[00:17:39] Six and a half wooded Lakewood acres three blocks from the water were given to the young couple by Stanley's father, Herbert, who lived nearby. This is like the fourth or fifth episode we've talked about where children are gifted land to build a house. Yeah. Must be nice. Yeah. Talk about things we won't ever know about. So as he tells it in his autobiography, Minding the Store, they did what any building couple does. They created a budget and they found an architect.

[00:18:04] And here is where another famous name in architectural history puts his imprint on the house. Frank Lloyd Wright selflessly offered to design the Marcus home. Why take an imitation? He modestly proposed to the Marcuses. In 1936, my wife and I paid a visit to Frank Lloyd's right at his home, Taliesin in Spring Green, Wisconsin. Pause on the reading here because we've done a great episode on Taliesin. Yeah. Episode 15. Oh, thanks, Bill.

[00:18:34] That is when we did the Taliesin. And if you haven't listened to it and you like mid-century modern and you are not aware of the murders that took place at Taliesin, go check out that one. That was a pretty cool story that I don't think a lot of people knew about. So picking back up on this Candy's Dirt article, they go to visit Frank Lloyd Wright at his home

[00:19:00] in Taliesin. And he would recommend to design a contemporary home for them in Dallas. And when I asked whether he recommended Richard Neutra, the California architect, or Bill Lascazi, the Swiss architect resident in New York, Wright replied, why take a substitute when you can get the original? writes Marcus. It was in the thick of the Depression and the Marcuses had budgeted $25,000 for construction, a huge amount back then and significantly more because of the land gift.

[00:19:29] In an insightful description of the architect, Stanley Marcus describes Wright's architectural plans based on the one day he visited Dallas in January 1934 when it happened to be 70 degrees. When his first preliminary sketches arrived, we noticed that there were no bedrooms, just cubicles in which to sleep when the weather was inclement. Otherwise, 90% of the time, we'd sleep outdoors on the deck. We protested that solution on the grounds that I was subject to colds and sinus trouble. He dismissed this objection in his typical manner, as though brushing a bit of

[00:19:59] lint from his jacket by assuring us that I wouldn't get colds if I slept outside. Finally, though, with great reluctance, he did enlarge the bedrooms. Then Wright had other headstrong ideas about the Marcus home. He provided little or no closet space, saying closets were only useful for accumulating things you don't need. This stone of the nation's great retail giants. Wright dragged the plans on, occasionally even asking Marcus

[00:20:24] for a loan. Ultimately, a local Dallas architect named Roscoe DeWitt, who the Marcuses had hired to act as like their local agent, like an intermediary for Wright, got the job. And DeWitt had already designed one contemporary model home for the Texas Centennial celebration at Fair Park. That home moved to 6851 Gaston thereafter, and remaining one of four or five art modern in the city, according to Douglas

[00:20:49] movie. Now, DeWitt, a Dartmouth and Harvard grad, also specialized in building courthouses and hospitals, and he ultimately designed two Neiman Marcus stores. Bringing it all back together, right? It is interesting to note, and gives great insight into the brilliance of Stanley Marcus, that he and his wife were clearly firm with Wright about their preferences. For example, they noted the sweating walls while visiting Taliesin and told Wright that they wanted, under no circumstances, sweaty walls in Dallas. They wanted good acoustics,

[00:21:19] with high ceilings. Though they had raised the original budget up to $30,000, Wright's preliminary estimates came in at $90,000 to $150,000. He was really eccentric. Yeah. Like I remember from the Taliesin episode, that he wanted things done his way and didn't even go into one of the houses he was designing and told the woman that her furniture was all wrong. Yeah. Something like that. She was going to throw a party right after the house was finished. He walked in and was like, no, this furniture's all wrong and started moving it around.

[00:21:49] So that makes sense, the way he was. Yeah. It was my way or the highway, pretty much. Right. I love it. Yeah, I guess. He could be that way. He could be that way. I mean, I guess he could. Although if you remember, like, people really didn't like him very much. Yeah. He was sort of a mad genius, I think. Yes. Yes. And had a interesting love life as well, as we talked about in that other episode.

[00:22:14] But can you imagine telling the owner of Neiman Marcus that they don't need a large closet? Like his whole, everything about him is clothes and showmanship and yeah. Yeah. I'm going to start saying that if clients are interviewing other agents. Why accept the invitation? When you can have the original. I love it. I love it. I like that. I like that. You let me know how that goes.

[00:22:40] Okay. We have some great photos of this house, which you can see if you've been watching us on YouTube because I just kind of was showing it there or we'll also post on our socials and website. But honestly, it is stunning and you do want to see it. And, you know, I'm so glad you're kind of telling the story about the nonsuch because, you know, when I'm driving by your house, like there's this little like section of the road called nonsuch. And I've taken pictures of the sign

[00:23:07] before because I was like, this is so random. How is there this small road named that? Right. Yeah. No, you're absolutely right. Okay. But back to the real estate we started talking about at the beginning of the episode. The building on the corner of Maine and Irve was built in 1914 after a fire destroyed the original 1907 Neiman Marcus along with all of the items inside. Imagine. I hope they had really good insurance.

[00:23:35] Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things I really liked when I was researching a little bit about Neiman Marcus was that, you know, Herbert Marcus, but he did it with his sister, Carrie. And that was really kind of cool. Like there's not a lot of like female entrepreneurs that were famous at that time. And so she had gone to New York when they first opened in 1907 and like just bought all sorts of stuff there and the inventory sold out almost immediately. But she actually has a lot of

[00:24:04] interesting history about her and of her role as a working woman at that time. Oh, I love that. I'll have to do some more digging on that. I took a photograph and we'll post it on our socials today when I was in the store because I was like, I need to walk through, you know, while we're here. And there was some quote from, I think it was Stanley Marcus that said something about people don't want to buy things when they see a lot of them. And if you think about the Neiman

[00:24:33] Marcus flagship store, it will, it is a very collected, it almost has an art gallery feel. You're not walking into a store where there are racks and racks of clothes and all different sizes. No, it's curated. Very curated. Yes. So from, from obviously the new location, the store flourished. And from what I can tell, Neiman Marcus or it's now parent company, Saks Global, currently actually owns most of the

[00:25:03] land under the store at 1618 Main Street. At least initially they did. I don't know if it's been sold off over time or not, but you know, commercial real estate's really complicated. That's not really what you and I do. Not that we don't do complicated things, but it's just a different world. Another beast. Yeah. And so in 1926, the owners of some land signed a 99 year ground lease with CC Slaughter for a 2,500

[00:25:30] square feet piece of land under the Southwest corner of the store. And that lease ran until January 31st of this year almost extended briefly through the end of March, 2025. Can you imagine having this like huge building and you either own or have the rights to like 99.99% of it, but there's like a little sliver that you don't own. And so they have this like a hundred year lease essentially.

[00:25:58] I'm trying to picture which part of it is. I was like, uh, maybe it was the shoe section or the perfume area. So what I read this in a couple of the articles that have come out on that. I think it's like where the escalators are and then to the, that doesn't quite seem Southwest corner to me, but several articles I read mentioned like the space under the escalators.

[00:26:21] Well, okay. Where I told you the cafe is and where there is a champagne vending machine. I took a picture of the champagne vending machine. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you haven't been to this place in Dallas, there literally is a champagne for like, you know, those like little mini demi bottles of champagne that you can just get right in the middle of the department store. Now, if it were a Pinot Grigio vending machine, I would be all in. Or vodka. Or vodka.

[00:26:49] I mean, you go straight in. Handing little screwdrivers out. Yes. Yeah. I guess that would be a very central to the store. It's kind of hard to cut off the rest of the store from the elevators. Yeah. So like we said, the lease ran and it's running through the end of this month. We're recording this on March the 3rd. Elena, we may have to drop this one sooner than some of the things we have coming out. But so on February 18th, only two weeks ago, the Neiman Marcus

[00:27:18] parent company, Saks Global, announced that it had received a notice from their landlord to terminate occupancy at the end of a lease. In a statement, they said, after more than a decade of negotiations, we received a notice from a landlord to terminate our occupancy, the spokesperson said. This location has been a beloved institution in the community for more than a century,

[00:27:42] and we are disappointed to be losing a piece of Neiman Marcus history. And y'all, when news of this broke, Dallas went into mourning. It was already a rough week because there had been the Luca trade to, did he go LA? Yeah. Everybody was already upset about that. And so a girlfriend of mine quickly booked one more lunch at the Zodiac Room, which is why ladies, I had a fabulous boozy lunch on a random Monday. That's awesome.

[00:28:07] But wait, the story does not end there. Only a few days later, after this February 18th announcement, a group of city officials came together, met with the landlord, and reached an agreement with slaughter partners for that 2,500 square foot piece of land to be donated to the city of Dallas so that Neiman's can continue to be a part of downtown Dallas at 1618 Main Street. A quote in the D Magazine article about this story reads,

[00:28:34] Conversations late into the evening and early morning between Sean Todd and Mr. Rogers culminated with a meeting with city manager Kimberly Bazaar Tolbert this morning, during which the slaughter family confirmed their intention to donate the land to the city of Dallas. The city of Dallas will then commit this parcel for the continued operations of the downtown Neiman Marcus flagship store. And we all sort of briefly rejoiced. And then like two hours later, as the article goes on to say,

[00:29:04] Shortly after 4 p.m. on February 26th, a Saks Global spokesperson provided this statement to the D CEO, Given our role in the Dallas community, we are working to schedule a meeting with the Dallas consortium. However, at this time, our plans to close the downtown Dallas Neiman Marcus remain in place. So, that's where we're at. We got the landlord dispute figured out, but maybe that wasn't the only issue. Right. So, what do y'all think?

[00:29:32] I think it's not going to last. I'm really sad. Yeah. I feel like almost like Saks was kind of using this lease as their way out of this location and be able to kind of save face. Oh, it's not us. It's not us. It's this lease. But really, it was them. I mean, I've mentioned I've been there a lot at different times of the year.

[00:29:57] And I have to say, other than Christmas, the place is dead. Like to the point that like you're kind of like awkward walking around it. Like you'll see some people in the shoe area. You'll see some people at the cafe. Maybe you might see a few people in kind of like the younger, quote unquote, trendier, which, you know, still not neat. You know, the younger clothes section. But really, it's not. It's more idealized as the flagship location and less about where you're

[00:30:27] going to go for your like, you know, high end day to day luxury goods. All department stores have gone that way, though. That's not fair for them in that location. So I think, though, I mean, look, the balance sheet always has to work. But now we're talking Saks Global. So they've got a lot of stores under their umbrella. I think if you look long term, I think downtown Dallas in 10 to 15 years is going to be so different than it is now. I mean,

[00:30:55] Mel, you work in a part of downtown that wasn't there, what, 10 years ago? Really? Like all that area around where you work has been built up. And I mean, I guess I've lived in Dallas 20 something years now. We've all been saying like downtown is coming, downtown is coming. But I think we're almost there. And so I would, I think if you're looking at this at a 50 year plan, keeping it makes a lot of sense. If you're looking at it this year and next year, and, you know, we have to talk

[00:31:22] to our board about profit and loss in the next two years, maybe not. But it is almost a billboard for the brand. So you almost have to look at it more as a marketing expense than. Yeah. I always thought, and I could be completely wrong, but a lot of the operations, like the behind the scenes operations were also housed in the building. That is accurate. Yes. Okay. So that's, yeah, kind of where I thought a lot of people worked.

[00:31:51] And I will say, you know, we have another Neiman Marcus at North Park Mall, which is only what, maybe five miles from that location. And it's, it's definitely busier than the downtown location. But I also think when you shop with the kind of retail or the high-end merchandise that Neiman's carries, you don't actually go to the store to shop a lot. Typically you have a personal shopper

[00:32:16] who will bring things to you. It's not a life I know anything about. But my mom's dear, dear friend worked in the Neiman's fur department for years, the one over in Fort Worth. And they very rarely sold furs in the store. Like new furs would come in, you would take them to clients' homes and they would choose what they wanted and then you would take the rest back. Right. Yeah. It's like some of those stores in North Park where no one's ever in there. How do they even pay rent? There's no, but it's because they have the personal shopper.

[00:32:46] Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. So I have a little bit of a confession to make. I did not start out to write this episode. I really just meant for it to be a quick convo about my boozy lunch and, you know, sort of downtown Dallas. But I do love a good real estate story and I just couldn't like help myself from continuing to keep going. So I hope our listeners enjoyed the history lesson. But, you know, it wouldn't be crime state if we didn't talk about a crime. And because I didn't start out writing this as a crime story,

[00:33:15] I had to stretch just a little bit. But I think you will find the crime fascinating anyway. So I mentioned earlier that Neiman Marcus is now owned by Saks Global. Neiman filed for bankruptcy after the pandemic. And so they were acquired by Saks Global in 2024. And here is where our crime comes in. So Daniel Kaminsky is a bankruptcy lawyer and he was the principal of Marble Ridge, a hedge fund with assets under management of more than $1 billion

[00:33:45] that invested in securities and distress situations, including bankruptcies. This is all like a little bit above my head. But essentially he managed a lot of money and they would look for businesses that were in distress and they might invest in those businesses that were in the bankruptcy proceedings. Got it. Okay. So and according to an article in Investment Executive, yes, I read an article in Investment Executive. Of course. Yeah. Of course.

[00:34:10] Kaminsky co-chaired a committee of unsecured creditors involved in the bankruptcy proceedings and threatened to use his position on that committee to prevent an investment bank from acquiring securities in these bankruptcy proceedings for a higher price than his hedge fund was offering. He also said that the fund would cease doing business with the bank. So presumably if they made a higher bid than what Kaminsky firm was willing?

[00:34:40] Yeah. So I think he was like using his leverage. He was saying like, hey, I do a lot of business with you guys and I know you're interested. It'd almost be like if we said to one of our clients, hey, I know you want to buy that house, but I want to buy it too. And you can't bid more than me. But we would have a business relationship with those clients where we gave them a lot of money somehow. So they didn't want to lose our business. It's a very like collusion. Yes. Very unethical. Very shady.

[00:35:10] But obviously like commercial bankruptcy proceedings are sort of beyond my area of expertise. So I'm just like reading between the lines there. I did link though to a really great article from Institutional Investor in our show notes that goes into a lot more of the background of the crime. So if you're just fascinated and want to know more, you can find that in our show notes. Anyway, the investment executive article I quoted earlier goes on to say, ultimately the bank decided not to submit its bid and informed the committee that it was because

[00:35:38] a hedge fund client had asked it not to bid. And Kaminsky later asked an employee of the bank to tell the committee that he had only told the bank not to bid unless it was really serious saying, do you understand? I could go to jail. That's not good. That's not good. I mean, we don't need to know a lot about financial crimes to know that probably sounds like that's bad. Yeah, that's right. So the U.S. attorney prosecuting this case, Audrey Strauss, said,

[00:36:04] Daniel Kaminsky committed bankruptcy fraud, undermining the integrity of bankruptcy proceedings and violating his fiduciary responsibility in an effort to take extra profits for himself and his hedge fund. As he himself predicted, this fraud has now landed Daniel Kaminsky in prison. So in the end, Daniel Kaminsky pled guilty to fraud and extortion charges for pressuring that rival

[00:36:29] bidder to withdraw from bidding for assets from the Neiman Marcus bankruptcy. And he was sentenced to six months in prison and fined $55,000. I have a question for any bankruptcy lawyers that listen to us. I want to know if Neiman's can go after Kaminsky for not getting them as much in bankruptcy as they could have received. Does that make sense?

[00:36:57] Neiman's. Oh, like, was there money left on the table that Neiman's is owed? Like, was this some sort of collusion to have a cheaper price that? Yeah. Well, he obviously wanted it for his business. But I mean, I can't I just don't know enough about it to be like, does the. Yeah. Y'all can probably hear my dog barking in the background. Sorry. Yeah. I'm just curious. Like, obviously, money was left on the table because this other, you know, if we were selling a house.

[00:37:26] To bring it back to like terms that are a little easier to think about. And I told somebody, don't bid, don't make an offer on that house. And my clients could have made another twenty thousand dollars. Aren't I responsible? Like my like it like they said, my duty is to my clients to get them as much money as possible. And if I go over here and say, no, don't do it. I feel like my clients are still owed the money that the other people would have offered. For sure. I think it's an excellent question.

[00:37:56] Yeah. You're going to do the research, figure it out for me. Oh, no, I want to have bankruptcy lawyer to answer. OK. Yeah. There we go. Well, if you know, send us a DM. Yeah. We don't really have, you know, our typical would you live there? Would you list it? Answer. I mean, you know, I would definitely live in Neiman Marcus if I could. But it could be like Patty. Was it Paddington? Oh. Oh, hey. Sorry. Look. Phones ringing. Dogs barking. Kids wanting to be picked up. You know what? I mean, we're keeping it real.

[00:38:26] Yes. We are nothing if not keeping it real. But yeah. So today's episode was a little different. Thank you for sticking with us. If you love the podcast and want to support the show. Yeah, please do. Please do. Please do. Well, how can they? Well, let me tell you, Melanie. You can like the podcast. You can subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or anywhere you get your podcast. And you can tell your friends about the show.

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